The Sports Physical Therapy Podcast

Becoming a Specialist in One Sport with Dave Tilley - Episode 9

May 31, 2022 Mike Reinold
The Sports Physical Therapy Podcast
Becoming a Specialist in One Sport with Dave Tilley - Episode 9
Show Notes Transcript
Many physical therapists want to work with athletes, but have you ever wanted to focus on just one sport?

In this episode of the podcast, I'm joined by Dave Tilley, who specializes in working with gymnasts.

We're going to talk about why Dave started to really focus on one sport and how you can do the same.


Full show notes: https://mikereinold.com/becoming-a-specialist-in-one-sport-with-dave-tilley

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Introduction:

On this episode of the sports physical therapy podcast, I'm joined by Dave Tilley. Dave is one of the physical therapists with us at champion PT and performance. And he specializes in gymnastics. I'm pretty fortunate to get to work side by side with Dave each and every day, because he's one of the brightest minds I know. More than that though. He's super passionate about helping the sport of gymnastics. In this episode, we're going to talk about what made him specialize in one sport. And all the things that you can do if you want to do a similar path in your career

Mike:

hey, what's up Dave? Welcome to the podcast. How's everything going?

Dave:

Mike. Hello? How are you? Welcome to another, the third, the third, uh, adventure of Mike Reinold. He's got 19 podcasts by the time this.

Mike:

I don't know, I'm I, you know, I, I'm excited about this. new one and, you know, I'll give, I'll give the listeners a sneak peek peek a little bit here, but, um, you know, Dave is my first interview. I don't think you're gonna be my first episode though. So like somebody is going to be listening to this all I got out of order and stuff, but, um, I, you know, I get it, I, to do a bunch of, uh, of interviews recording in here and you'll be one of the first ones day, but I appreciate everything, but. Hi, how how's everything going? Obviously, Dave and I are good friends. We worked together at that champion up in Boston, but how's everything going on your end?

Dave:

Dude. I'm good. I won't lie. Uh, this is the last month is probably six weeks is probably the hardest I've ever worked on projects and stuff going on because in a good way, it's like we have like three or five, three to five projects up in the air floating. And then like in a blink of an eye by serendipity, all of them were like, okay, this is the time. So, you know, we have research projects that started, we have the symposium coming up. I have my own clinic. The clinic just got super busy with like more and more people who had injuries or surgeries. So like in the blink of an eye, I went from like, oh, I'm kind of like head above water. And now I'm like, oh my God. Like literally my entire week is, is filled, which is cool. I mean, I'd rather do that instead of my hands, but yeah, it's exciting at the same time, but.

Mike:

Yeah. And look, I've worked next to you for quite some time here. I mean, you've definitely had some busy periods of, of your life, right? It's an ebb and flow, right? Like you, you know, like you have these crazy times, but when it's all said and done, you look back and you're like, wow, we got a lot accomplished in that brief period. And then, you know, take a well-needed vacation and pause from social media and stuff and, and move on. Right. Um, awesome. Well, Well, th I, I think a lot of people, you know, know who you are, obviously. That's pretty awesome. Right. Um, and one thing that you're known of obviously is that you're an expert in gymnastics. I think you've, you've, done a really good job, like, like establishing yourself as that person, almost like a go-to resource in gymnastics for so many reasons. So, you know, for me, I, I think, I don't know if everybody knows this, but like, I think you're an expert on gymnastic injuries and rehab, but like you're also really good at. And performance training, right? Like kind of like putting it all together, which is kind of crazy that you're so good at so many different things within gymnastics. Like what made you decide to go all in and become an expert at one thing at gymnastics? What made you decide to do that specific?

Dave:

Yeah. So there's definitely a couple of things here. So one is, it's a combination of opportunity and luck meets just a lot of work, right? So like, I'm very lucky that the stars aligned for me in this. Obviously a lot of hard work, but I'm very lucky that like, like I was, I was born in a town with a gym right down the road and I could go because my mom worked next to the place. Right. And then I got really fortunate to have good coaches who were nice to me and kept me in the sport. And then I went to college and competed in like then when I came out of school, though, I like got plopped into an amazing environment of. Great gymnastics coaches, but then also you and Lenny, right? A couple of years after school, which was like a dream job for me. And then I also was exposed to the CrossFit world that was getting very popular. And I met a lot of people through that about strength and conditioning. So I just had this really, really unique situation where I was a coach and I was a gymnast and I also has the other hat and like the medical and the transitioning world. So I just got a fire hose of information right out of the gate. I learned as much as I possibly could in the first couple of years, like I spent an uncomfortable amount of time on content. Right. Because I just knew that like, this is stuff I have cool stuff from gymnastics, but I didn't, I missed the boat on a lot of stuff. Strength, conditioning, sports, ortho, like all that kind of stuff. So. Luck meets hard work is definitely part of it. But also like when I look at gymnastics, like obviously I love the sport I've been in since I was two. But if you look at the sport now, particularly the last five years with the huge scandals and stuff going on, it's like, there's so much unnecessary suffering and gymnastics. Like it's already so hard. And so many people there's. Injuries and mental issues and performance issues that are like, there's so much low-hanging fruit for how to make improvements, right? Science-based strength and conditioning, like early specialization and some other stuff that if we just gave a teeny tiny bit of help in those departments, it'd be insane to see how good the entire sport got. Right. I see these very large opportunities to introduce things that I've learned from you and Lenny and others in the baseball world about very small changes to the way you do stuff, or just adding things here and there, getting over some cultural barriers. And we've seen it at champion in the last five years because we have probably the most gymnast that come and live with us and work out with us that we have a great sample size, but it's incredible to see what happens when somebody just buys in a little bit. Right. And then they, they help, you know, make some career changes. But yeah, I see those two things. Personally for me, it's extremely intellectually challenging as a sport to work into because it's all parts of the body, right. Like I have to know the elbow and the knee and the hip and the back. Right. And so I, I just got blessed that I really like learning and I enjoy that and stuff. So it's a perfect, like the, it never stops. There's always something else to dig into or think about. So I enjoyed that part of it that I can just keep continuously.

Mike:

Yeah. And you know, the part that I thought was really kind of cool about this whole, whole concept is like, think about you as a person, like growing up right over the, over your years of your development, right? You put so much mental and physical energy into the sport of gymnastics as an actor. Right that think about that. That was like your whole world. Like what consumes your brain on, on trying to get better. Right? How amazing is it that you then became a professional in not eat? It's not like your gymnastics coach or your professional gym gymnast, right? You, you went almost like in a complimentary type professional route where you're like, I want to do something professionally that could help my sport, but you get. All those like decades of mental and physical energy into the sport, and now apply it to your profession and actually make a living off that. I mean, I think that's, that's, one thing that I think sometimes students and early career professionals don't understand that they have an opportunity to do is, is, look, you spent so much time working on gymnastics. Don't lose all that. Figure out a way to integrate that into your profession. Right.

Dave:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think. Again, I, I grew up in, I think it's actually, it's, it's good that I. Awesome at gymnastics. Like I was not the most talented, I wasn't born super powerful, super like, you know, born for this sport. And like I was okay. I was barely okay at my level, but I think it's good because I learned, I had to put so much more work into dissecting what actually goes into technique and how to work hard and all that kind of stuff that maybe I didn't have an illustrious career. But when I came out of the other side, I knew so much about. The sport that helped me get better. I could apply that in terms of learning models, right? Like I had to study everything. I had to study all my coaches. I had to watch as many people as I could because it just didn't come naturally to me. And so I think that helps me get in a position where I can have that approach to dissecting stuff and breaking it down. And that's exactly a lot of the things I learned in gymnastics around. Critiquing things and breaking things down and being, uh, pretty, not hard on yourself, but working on yourself constantly to get better. I applied those to breaking down. Okay. Why are there 5,000 kids with back pain and gymnastics? Like why does nobody want to do strength conditioning? Why do we have no research on workloads? And so I was able to reverse engineer. Complicated problems. I think because I had the same approach to very complicated skill work in gymnastics. So it's good that I wasn't an amazing Jimmy's because if I had made like a college and a D one in a national team and made the Olympics or whatever, I would, I would not do anything intellectually. I would just be riding, not saying all Jim is, but I personally would have been so consumed by the athletics. I wouldn't have gotten into, you know, learning and breaking things down in that kind of part. So it's probably a blessing in disguise that I wasn't.

Mike:

Yeah. You know what that reminds me of too. Everybody always says like, like, can you imagine if like Michael Jordan was your basketball coach? Right. That would be like, you know what I mean? Like, like he just be like, I don't know, just shoot it and put it through the hoop. I mean, like, like I, like I do, I don't know, just do it right.

Dave:

made me a better coach for sure, because I like had to understand how to break things down. And also, I also really understood the mental grind van. Like it's so frustrating when you're not good and you're trying to get better. Like I under, I was empathetic to people who didn't get it. Like everybody else did like a lot of really talented athletes, just like, oh, I just like tried it for a week and I got it. It's like, okay, bro, that doesn't work for everybody. It took me six months. So I can understand where people are coming from when they get really frustrated and want to take 6, 8, 10 months to see.

Mike:

Yeah. for sure. And that could, because you live through that. And again, I think that's where, you know, that's where that really shines is, is you can connect with people you've shared their experiences. You understand that, um, that, that makes sense. Um, you know what I liked that you really said right there, or what I got from what you said, cause I've seen you do this a little bit again in person, just cause I know you, but one thing that, that, you know, you alluded to right there is. Finding out, like critiquing yourself, finding out your knowledge gaps, and then making a very strict plan on filling a hole in your knowledge or your skill, whatever it may be, but, but identifying your gaps and filling that. Right. So, you know, we often talk to people that want to specialize in. Right. They want to get really good at one thing. And we often talk about that could be anything, right. It could be, especially in our profession as sport, physical therapist, like it could be a joint. You can just be a good shoulder person. Right. It could be a technique, like a manual technique or whatever it may be that you're really good at, or it can be a sport like gymnastics, like I'm really good at gymnastics. Right. So obviously you focused on a sport, right? Want to focus on one sport. How do they get started in that? Like what sort of things do you think you would recommend for somebody that wants to get going to start cementing that? Because I love like that knowledge gap thing you just said right there. I think that's a great start, but like, what other advice would you give? Because everybody wants to know the answer to the question is how do I become a well-known specialist in blank? What do you think.

Dave:

Yeah, it's funny because Dan and I actually had had long conversations about this because Dan and I were kind of the first two people who were hired at channel. PTs next to you and Lenny, right? You and Lenny can finish each other's sentences, right? You guys are so in tandem with what you know, but Dan and I were trying to figure out how do we make sure we're, we're involved enough to know everything, but we can specialize. And so on the learning part, it's funny, this comes full circle because when I was first out of school and I was in my first grad year, I wanted to work with gymnastics. I wanted to work with people who are active, but I didn't feel prepared to do the things that were in front of me. Right. So I actually remember I treated, uh, it might've been actually a gymnast that had a cover page. And I didn't really feel comfortable and what I was doing. And I honestly think I flared a cuff up because like, we didn't know what we were doing. And I think we like made it really, really sore. And I instantly bought your shoulder course. Like it was like the same week. I was like, I'm like figure this out.

Mike:

Panic. I, I I breed off people's panics. I think that that is that's. That's what, that's what we market towards. So that's awesome. So I appreciate that.

Dave:

no, but, um, so in that, in that light though is I think that Dan and I have talked about how like, well, we're maybe specialist in. I was way more of a generalist before I'm a specialist. Right. I actually think I'm good as a specialist in the sport of gymnastics, because I worked so hard to master individual joins and understand the mechanics of those. And so for you, for example, like I was like, okay, I don't know these things who are the, where are the best pieces of content that I can find to help me learn about the shoulder in general so I can help everybody, but then I can apply that to gymnastics. Right. So I like found your course for shoulder, and then I found like all the McKenzie stuff and all that Stuart McGill stuff for like back pain and spine. All the stuff from Dr. Kelly on hip stuff. I was just finding all the different people that had really good, comprehensive. Uh, approaches to, this is how you master the joint, right? Like, yes, gymnasts get labeled terrorists, but so many other athletes get labeled tears as well. So if I can understand the hip joint really, really well, if I can understand the shoulder joint really, really well, I can then filter that knowledge into, okay, what is the gymnast in front of me need when they have a cuff issue or a label issue or whatever. So that's always the recommendation that I tell people and even, um, you know, Aaliyah and people who are in the clinic now they're asking like, oh my God, where do I start for gymnastics? Cause it's so old. Gymnastics is unique because I have to understand each joint because you never know if somebody comes in, like, I literally have a hip labral repair and Achilles tear and a cuff rotator cuff strain, like on my schedule like yesterday. So it's very, very diverse. I put in probably five years of, okay. For two, I said, what is the most important thing in front of, what am I seeing the most and what do I definitely not know the most? And I would spend three months on that. Every surgical textbook, every article, every course I could find. All right. I feel good about that. What's the next three months Johnny's low back. Okay. Then it was functional movements. SFMA and then it was this right. And I went through that systematically, maybe every three months. I changed that for about three years. I did that. And that's how I think I came really, really good at gymnastics as a whole. And then. Pivot when someone's in front of me about like, okay, I don't know exactly what injury you have or what exactly is going on, but I know a lot about the ankle or the back, and I can apply that.

Mike:

I like that. So focus on, I mean, obviously you're, you're developing, we're talking about, you know, several years ago, when you were an early career professional, you're developing, you're still trying to get your feet wet in a lot of areas because you have to be a good, generalized physical therapist before you can start specializing. I like that. But again, the point, gosh, Dave, you said it again, or you kind of, you didn't say it, but you said it is, you identified your knowledge again. And that is one of the bigger things. Again, they're getting, you know, you said, I felt insecure about hip labral injuries and to serve the person I want to specialize in the most, the gymnast. I need to know this. So you sought out the best you learn from them. I mean, that's, that's a really good. Uh, you know, teaching point, right there is being able to identify your knowledge gaps, and then just taking the one by one and, and coming up with a game plan and attacking that. and filling those gaps. And over time you become even more, um, you know, funny, you become more specialized, but also better as a generalist, right. Is that possible? Is that an oxymoron?

Dave:

I think, no. I think for me, I empathize with people too, because like, I always refer to those, I don't know where I read this, or if I came up with like, it's like an emotional catalyst, right. That day in the clinic, when I flared that girl's cuff up, I went home and I felt awful. I was like, Well, you know

Mike:

that's funny.

Dave:

And I've had other times when I didn't know the surgery, as well as I should have. And maybe we pushed a little bit too far and the doctor got mad because they were like, listen, you can't do that. Like, you're flaring them up. So there's a lot of new grads out there that are already insecure. They don't feel prepared. And then it's not like they just feel like they're getting tidal wave crushed in the clinic because they feel, they don't know how to treat these people. They're overwhelmed. And they're, it's a choice, man. You, you get a fork in the road, you can eat it. Uh, close your note and your laptop and go and do lunch and forget about that patient that just walked out of the door. And that was maybe not the best experience or you can be like, listen, this stinks. And I don't want this to feel the same way again, I'm going to make a plan to not feel this way again. And you've always said it too. Like, don't ask the same question twice. So. Yeah. Like, I'm sure students at the clinic come to us and like you ask them a question and they're like, uh, and they feel bad. They're like, I should know that, like, Mike, Mike, I want to impress Mike. And then like, it's like, okay man, it's, it's fine. Don't worry about it. Like just go home and research it and we'll talk about it tomorrow. Like you have to have that self audit process with yourself every single day. Like. Yesterday. I had a nine year old with an ACL tear and I was like, Ooh, it's been a while. Since I'd worked with a really young ACL tear, I was like, I'll do the best I can now. And I was honest. I was like, yeah, I don't know a couple of these things, but I'll go like last night I spent an hour looking at research on pediatric ACL tears for that exact reason. So you have to have that internal audit system of like, oh, this is a little uncomfortable that I don't know this, but.

Mike:

Yeah. I, I, And that's a great way of, of saying it and thinking of it too, because I feel like, you know, a lot of people, especially early career professionals, they feel like, am I supposed to know this? Am I supposed to know everything? And they feel bad about it. So just realize that both Dave and I have gone through the exact same thing, everything that you're feeling, everything that you're going through with that self-doubt but we went home and we researched it. Right? yeah,

Dave:

yeah, and also too is like this, this is a skill that you never, ever, ever lose. Right? Like, I'm talking about my first years at a school, but like last year I was treating a super, super high level professional athletes with an elbow issue. I couldn't quite wrap my head around it. Like, wasn't the, well, I just asked you, I was like, Mike, would you mind taking a look at this guy's elbow? Like, I don't know whether it's like a poster impingement thing or like a, I was doing. And like, we just worked together and figured it out and I was humble enough to be. This isn't getting better and I need help. So that was last year, seven years into my career. And there's times when I asked Lenny for questions. And I think Lenny asked me for back questions because maybe I see more. And so that's like a, uh, a skill that you have to maintain your entire life. I guarantee in 25 years when I'm working on something else that's new, or like, I haven't quite wrapped my head around. I'm going to be asking you for a question, even though I'm 40 years maybe into my career, like it's.

Mike:

So you're still going to be a treating clinician 40 years from now. Is that what you're saying? 20 years?

Dave:

going to virtually Skype you on some metaverse

Mike:

I, I was just going to say, you can, you can do that right there from your desk without ever like leaving in the metaverse. It's going to be amazing. So who would, who would've thought we would've thought we're going to put this in the show notes of this episode, that we talk about the future of the metaverse and physical therapy, but, uh, you know, again, great, great stuff. And, you know, w. We have this conversation with students intentionally a lot of times where I ask them questions that I don't expect them to know the answer to, but are easily researchable. Right. And, and that's always strategic on my part that I intentionally do that with them because, um, they're, I would say if I ask you a question like this week, we're talking about type one type two cartilage in the clinic, right. And. I expected maybe 50% of our students to, to know it right off the top of their head, but it. was easily something they could dig into and find the answer to. And w what I'm really doing. I really don't don't care if they learn about cartilage, because that part's easy. Right. What I'm actually trying to do is instill in them that skill. Of identifying a question and then answering it themselves that night. And, you know, I just had a conversation with one of our students on slack about this is like, you know, like get in the habit of going home and looking things up. So that way you go in, and then what happens is that breeds such self-confidence right. That you just become a better clinician because you're more confident anyway. So, um, uh, Where I want to pivot to with this and that sort of your question is we talked a lot about specializing. Do you ever feel like you aren't a well-rounded clinician that maybe you've specialized too much? Is that a thing.

Dave:

Yeah, I, I personally don't think so because I think that by taking the approach of learning a lot about different joints and mastering those joints and understanding how these things work in different injuries work, I have a pretty good. Mix of people on my case load, because I don't only want to see gymnast. Right. Like I that's personally, not for me. Like, I don't want to only ever see a hundred percent gymnast, but like I have a baseball player with a label repair. I have a soccer player with an ACL. I have general adult fitness people who want to do it because I think. I'm I've maybe done the work to be good at the regular things too. And not just like the hardcore specific gymnastics OCD lesion that I've been able to give people a positive experience with, with, uh, clinic work for other things they have issues with. And so I can see a bunch of different stuff. So I would say between the time of the year, it is, it's probably between 25 to 50% of my case load is non gymnast. Like I have a lot of gymnast, right. I have probably like 15 right now, but I have six to seven. 10, maybe general people, different sports, different whatever. And it's fine. It's it's good. I, I like to break out of the only routine of that. So I would personally, I mean, if you love, I don't know, concussions and you want to go only concussions and only treat that for the rest of your life. Like more power to you. We need you in the field, but I think there's a danger there of getting so stuck in one thing that you only see that thing all the time, because I think you'll get bored. And I think it's monotonous to be like, oh, here we go. Another. I don't know, another ACL, another ankle, something, right. Like I think being like the ankle guy or girl would sometimes get. But also, I think you limit yourself as a clinician of who you can help the most, right? Like I think you want to keep a broad shotgun approach. And then when the time comes, you know, if I have someone who, who came from far away and has a super unique gymnastics injury, I'll take those every once in a while. And I enjoy those, but I enjoy those just as much as I enjoy the, the 45 year old, uh, hip scope. I'm going to treat later today because she just wants to run. And her hip was bugging her and she had a label, a huge label tear. Like I enjoy both of those things.

Mike:

Yeah. And it probably keeps you sharp, right? Because it keeps you thinking about things. And you know what, I, I don't know the answer to this too, because I think if you take a step back and you think about specializing, right? I think you could argue it's more profitable as a business to specialize. Right? You could, you could argue that. Um, and then the dilemma I get into a lot of times is, is the same as kind of what you're saying right here is I definitely get in a bit of a rut, a little monotonous that all my people look exactly the same. Right. Because they're all baseball pitchers. One month before the season, for example. Right. So they all have the same time period. They all have the same issues at that time. Like it is what it is. Right. But then like, I think to myself though that like, it's, it's a service for them. Right. And me specializing more gets me better at serving the. Population more and more. So, you know, I'm equally as torn. Sometimes I feel bad about myself that, you know, maybe I'm not as good as I should be at certain things, but then, you know, you, you know, you just think like, wow, I mean, there's only so many hours in the day, I guess, like, you know, and if we can just help one population the most, like that's cool too.

Dave:

Yeah. And the other thing that I think is a really good piece of recommendation that I've actually watched you do is the clinic work. We never don't want to treat. Right. Because that's like, you're, you're in the trenches, you have the knowledge. But like, I also try to diversify the types of projects I take on. And I do that are not just clinic serve public facing service. Right. So I started dabbling more on like workloads with Tim Gabby and like the stress kind of stuff. And like that kind of system I enjoy studying that kind of zoom out, big picture. And then I also have other side projects that I'm working on around different topics and strength conditioning, like do Ash. And I are doing a research study with the gym as a champion on the performance side, we using the volt stuff. Like it allows me to have like, okay, I'm really into like the medical treating stuff. And then I can pivot a little bit when the season comes to an end and all the gymnast from home and may not can do my more research kind of workloads, stress. And then Alan and I have a project going on Achilles terrors and like workload research over here. So like, you also had that too, where, like you have your work in the, in the consulting with baseball teams, you have like your actual clinic work, you have your side business stuff, like your education stuff. I think that's a really good way to avoid stagnancy too, is if you're in the clinic and say, Not as fortunate like us, where we have a really lucky environment. Like, so you grind 50 hours in the clinic, straight clinical. Maybe you start doing some site education worker, do some side consulting work or do something like different, you know, a different era that interests you because you can, you can toggle to switch back and forth when you start to get burnt out from one thing.

Mike:

Yeah, it keeps you, it keeps your mind growing. I think, I think that that's an important one is. So, um, awesome. Well, you know, another thing that I think you've excelled that you've excelled at a lot of things. Right. But I think one thing. that you've excelled at is bridging this gap between clinicians are like us. Um, and I would include like strength professionals, so rehab and strength professionals, like almost that side of the spectrum, but also bridging that gap with the sport coaches, like the skill coaches in gymnastics and even the after. Themselves, right? I mean, you have athletes that follow you online and that learn from you because they want to learn about the science of gymnastics and stuff like that. That's, that's really hard to do, to, to speak and send a message and hit both the clinicians. The skill coaches and the athletes slash parents. Right. Because you're dealing with youth and everything. Um, that's, that's pretty impressive. Like, you know, how do you think being able to do that has helped you, do you think that's been important for your, you know, your development as a specialist and how would you recommend others? Like bridge that gap and not struggle, like talking to so many different people.

Dave:

Yeah, I think there's two things here. One is. It's really, really important here to lead with an empathetic point of view, because I think in a lot of our, in our industry, you see a lot of times where a medical provider or a strength village, who has, they gained a lot of knowledge. They'll start to get into an ivory tower complex where they think that they know more than other people. And they will kind of like kick the door in when they're trying to change things. Right. So I made this mistake as a younger coach and clinician that, you know, if you have information that's new or you have access to new science and stuff, like the last thing you want to do. Imply that someone's doing it wrong and that, you know, they're, they're screwing up and they're going to be defensive. Right. And there's a really cool book on called helping people change, which is the science of how you actually get someone to change. And it talks about putting in their position like, well, what do you want out of this? What are your goals? What would you like to get out of this? And so think about if you take, uh, a coach, a really, really high level, uh, national team coach, who's been coaching for 30 years, they've produced national team Olympians during. You have a coach, who's working in farms, a lot of people to the pro leagues. And they're doing really, really well. Right? If you come to them and say like, everything you're doing is wrong, they're going to laugh at you because they've spent 30 years proving that what they're doing is, is at least partially successful. Right. Maybe they're not optimal in terms of like health and longevity, but what's, it's working. Right. So I think that's really important is I want people to take an empathetic approach and put themselves in their shoes before they start to kick the door in. But people have to realize. One of the reasons and this isn't the most humble way possible. One of the reasons I have a lot of roots in all these areas is for eight years, I worked three jobs, 80 hours a week in these communities. Right? So for the longest time before last may, I would wake up at six. I would do shifts and do like public facing work to educate people. I would go to the clinic and work with Jim and then I would go coach myself. So I can. Build trust with people because I've done the work and I can speak to them on what their problems are. So I think that a lot of times people are looking for the fast, easy way to get change and attention from people, but the, the best way that I've ever connected with coaches or gymnast, or it's just doing the work, right. Like gymnast that I coached, I would literally do the conditioning workouts with them and be dying on the sled next to them. Right. Coaches, they see me coach 40 hours. Right. And then also see me at the meets on the weekends for the longest time. And then in the medical provider, I can, I can speak the lingo of being in the clinic and talking with people because I do it right. It's a lot of work, right? Like you have to make a decision, uh, personally, that you're going to sacrifice some things that you would maybe like to do to get 10 more hours per week. I don't use my personal social media. I barely watch TV or any sports right here and there, but that gave me 20 hours back per week to do these things. And that gave me really, really good. So the only reason that I can be fluid and kind of like talk to a gymnast and a different like lingo or stuff, and then talk to a coach and then talk to a medical wider, different, and get resonance with all those people is because I've, I've chosen to put in the hundreds and hundreds of hours of work that allow me to do that. Not done those things and just talk the talk, but nobody actually saw me at the meets or watching me workout or watching me treat 20 gymnast per week. Sometimes they'd kind of throw smoke at me and, you know, I call it a say-do gap. When you say one thing and do another people always see through that, it's like, I'm, it's like a smokescreen

Mike:

Well, I'm writing that down. The say, do gap. is that an original or do I have to give you something? that's

Dave:

out soon.

Mike:

The sick, the say-do gap. I like that. Um, yeah. And you know, like there's a certain sense of authenticity behind that as well. And I think your people, when you have conversations with people, I think they, they get a sense of that even indirectly. Right. Um, and look. Like I, I'm not a good baseball pitcher. Right. But I know how to talk to baseball pitchers about stuff, but it does crack me up sometimes when you hear like, you know, young, physical therapist that like, I really want to work with like CrossFit athletes and I'm like, oh great. Like, what do you think across it? Like, well, I think it's stupid. And like, I'm like, how, like, what do you mean? What do you mean? And they're like, what? And I'm like, have you ever tried it? And they're like, well, no. I'm like, well look, you gotta, you have to embrace it. You have to. You have to be part of that culture. You have to do it. There's, there's, there's pros and cons to everything. It's all about trying to find the pros over the cons and developing those. Right. And I think that's what you're doing. There's pros and cons of gymnastics. Right. And what you're trying to do is find the pros and try to like get away from the cons a little bit, you know? And, and I think that's, that's a great way of doing it. So, um, so speaking of that, maybe, maybe it's the elephant in the room, shall we say right now, but I've known you for a long time. Right. And I know that you, as a person have been aware. That the sport of gymnastics needs a bunch of change to its culture. Right? You've I've learned that through you before. I think we all, unfortunately. As a general public in some very sad and unfortunate events within your sport. Right. Um, and don't get me wrong. Like what happened in gymnastics is, is horrific in a lot of ways. And I don't want to say other sports, you know, do or don't have those same problems. But I think what it does is it exposes that there's probably some problems with the culture of a lot of our youth sports that we don't realize. Right. And you hate for it to come out in such a way that it did, because it it's really unfortunate, but like, tell me about that a little bit. Like, how are you attempting to promote change in this culture? Because to me, like it's such an uphill battle. Right. And we face this in baseball and I don't want to say I gave up because that's the wrong word, but I, instead of just trying to say, like, we have to change, it's more of like, we should change and I'll help anybody that wants to change, but not everybody wants to change. And I know that's hard. So like, so how do you deal with the uphill battle of trying to change a culture in a sport that has just been so embedded for, you know, the existence of the whole sport?

Dave:

Yeah, I think that's a great question. It's a, it's a, it's a definitely a complex ever evolving answer. And first of all, it goes back to what we just talked about, which is you have to lead into this with empathy in their perspective, right? Like 19. 8.5% of coaches out there in gymnastics are incredible people doing the right thing and trying to give kids a great experience and they love the sport and they love that they have a passion for their sport 0.005%, maybe are the ones that are monsters that opened Pandora's box and probably should be in jail. Right. But then in between there, you have

Mike:

Some are, some of. them are,

Dave:

exactly. And you have that 1%, that of people who are like, maybe just influenced by those people who did terrible things and they want to change, but they don't know what to do elsewhere. So you look at the map that's 99.05% of people who are doing amazingly well and really care about the kids. And the, the, you know, negativity, he gets all the publicity, right? So like, you don't hear about the amazing coach who worked their butt off for 40 years and got a bunch of kids, uh, scholarships. And, you know, as the, is the best coach in the world, like mainstream media, doesn't share that as much, they share the horror stories as they should. But at the same time you get a filter that, oh my God, gymnastics is full of these kids. Just abusing everybody all the time. And yes, there are people who need to be literally removed from the sport and probably put in jail, but that's not the. Right. So I think that's a really important perspective is when you approach any change like this, you have to be empathetic to the people who are in the trenches everyday doing the harder work. And I think that gives you a little bit more humanization of what they're going through. And again, I didn't go through a situation fortunately, where I was in a horrific, you know, abuse situation, but I saw the strain that happens on coaches and that happens on parents that happens on people who are trying to work in this crazy sport called gymnastics. Which specialist from national bodies to be, do this at this certain age and be on this team by 10 years old. And there's all these college recruit that are coming super early to twelve-year-old getting letters. Like that's a challenging situation for those kids to be in. And so I think with that said, though, there's three things for me that. Like non-negotiables, if we want change, one is we need a standard set, ethical and moral code for everyone in gymnastics. But I think all sports should adopt this. So do you need to have a very clear guideline about this is how you work with kids. This is appropriate. This is not appropriate and safe. Sport is developing that, but we need people to abide by that. And then we need positive peer pressure between each other. That when you see something in a meet that you're like, it's not abusive, but just like you can't talk to a kid that way, like. That's not appropriate, man. Like it's going to, if it comes peer to peer it's again, it's that emotional catalyst like, oh, I I'm sorry. I overstepped my boundaries. So you need people holding each other accountable, but also frankly you need organizations and people who run gym clubs, people who own businesses to have a spine and hold somebody accountable when they do something that's not appropriate. And until that happens, we're not going to see any change because everyone will continue to kind of slip through the cracks. So that's one, two is on the bigger picture is we need like a. Overhaul and the educational model. So I think the, the barrier to entry to become a gymnastics coach right now is like, literally what I did, which is like, Hey, I'd like to make some extra money and I love gymnastics. Can I start teaching preschool classes? And they were like, yeah, we'll train you up. And then you're good to go. It's like, oh, well, that's terrifying. You know, you have young kids who are going through a challenging sport. So we have to, I think we have to mirror the medical model where it's dual between. Academic, you know, so you want to become a gymnastics coach or a baseball coach or whatever. It's a minimum of six to nine months of academic work, partnered with a mentorship where you go into clinic or are you going to gym? And you follow when you learn from someone that's like the barrier to low level entry, then say you want to go high level or a national team. You have another year of advanced coursework where you learn from the best people in the world, you move and you shadow them. And the finance for that is split between maybe the gym that is going to pay for 50% and you pay for 50% on a contract. You'll agree to work for them for two years, right? If you, if you go through this education, so that's the second thing, and three is what I'm working on now is we need like a very standard workload system. We need a way to measure how hard gymnastics is and how to track that and how to train that. So that's not for everyday people to do because that's for geeks like me and Tim and other people to do and Ellen, but, um, we need to be able to translate that research and give better medical care to people in the trenches, like, okay, what do I do with this information? So, yeah, that's kind of like the three things that I see, unless those things have progress. We're not going to see any change.

Mike:

Yeah. And that last thing you said here, like those, those workloads stuff, what you're really saying there is you need people like yourself to research the science and the epidemiology and injury mechanics, stuff like that. So that way. Apply that back to your first point, right? Like, like the curriculum based, um, you know, the, the, the building, the safe sport environment for those, those types of things. So, you know, you need to do those sorts of things as well. So, um, awesome. And, you know, you know, great, great advice for all those things. And I, I really like how you, you outline those, those kind of three steps, because I think that applies to all things. Right. I mean, gymnastics is a little more obvious right now, but, um, I see it starting to happen more and more, especially as a parent right now, more and more, uh, with every sport and what the kids are going through with their, with their schedules and stuff right now are just mind blowing with what's appropriate. And, you know, even as a parent, I'm trying to like negotiate that like in my mind of like, like how do you feel. But not, you know, participate in the things that you find to be wrong. Right. You know what I mean? Like some of these things, like, you know, all day long lacrosse tournaments that are two hours away, uh, for eight year olds, prey that don't even understand how to hold the stick that well, right. Like just, just like little, you know, I'm, um, you know, not. I'm not biased to it. I'm not venting it anyway. Right. Yeah. Right. But, you know, but, but just as an example? but, Uh, but awesome, great stuff, Dave. Uh, I want to end the podcast with our high five and that's, you know, a little segment I do at the end of the podcast episodes where five quick questions, five quick answers. But I think, you know, really impactful stuff for the listeners. so let's start with this. What are you currently reading or working on for your own development, your own continuing education?

Dave:

Uh, so I have a couple side books that I'm reading for like personal development, but I'll be honest. I'm not right now because I'm so consumed by research and the symposium. So usually I have a solid 30 to 30, 60 minutes in the morning where it's a non-negotiable, but just squeeze in a workout and actually get some stuff done. It's I got it shelved until April. So I'll just be very transparent that I'm not.

Mike:

All right, then I'm going to flip that then. So this is the high five and a half we'll say, but what, what, what's the first thing you're going to start working on in April.

Dave:

Yeah. So I have a very in-depth, uh, ankle anatomy textbook, which is my revisiting. So I'm going to go through in-depth anatomy stuff for ankle and all that kind of stuff. That's the next project.

Mike:

Unbelievable because you identified a knowledge gap, right? I'm seeing it. I'm seeing a trend here. Okay. What's all right. Second, second one. What's one thing that you've recently changed or evolved your thoughts on.

Dave:

Um, yeah, so bigger picture that it's better to have and choose one to three major projects to focus on, then have seven juggling in the air and have FOMO that you're missing out. So I used to have 13 things for shifts going in for research projects and nine things in the clinic I wanted to learn. I was like, oh, I'll just like chip away at all. You know, little by little and then I'll get them when they get them. But, uh, yeah, that never worked out. I just buried myself. So now I I'm better at saying what is the three things I must focus on right now and tackling that and then reevaluating.

Mike:

I love it. What is your best piece of advice to students and early career professionals?

Dave:

Yeah, it might be a little bit philosophical, but I don't think people should ever depend on any one or anything else for their motivation or their self-esteem or their happiness. I think a lot of young clinicians get wrapped up in. Oh, my God. I worked with this athlete. Look how cool I am. I have to put it on Instagram, take a picture with me so that I can show people or they get wrapped up in. I want to impress people. I want to impress Mike Reinold. I want to impress people, blah, blah, blah. And they lose. They lose the internal motivation to do it themselves. And so. I think clinicians that are new should spend the time figuring out like what they enjoy, what makes them happy, what they can do to take care of their own health first, because that gives you the energy in the steam to get through a lot of the long hours. Right? Some of the I'll be honest, some of the longest nights that I have, it's like 15 hours into the day. It's 11 o'clock at night, and I'm still working on something. If I was doing it to impress you or to get the money or to show off on Instagram. I would fold like a cheap tent. So you have to have a resource that is constantly renewable, which is I'm doing this because I enjoy it. This is a good thing that I love to do. And that gives you the bandwidth to then put in extra hours and put in a lot more time and sacrifice, you know, those 10 extra hours you might want to go out and watch TV or something like that to put in.

Mike:

I love it. All right. Number four. What's coming up next for Dave Tilley.

Dave:

My, all of my energy is on the shift symposium, which is an educational event in June. We're doing that. You and linear and Dan and Jonah and DoorDash are helping me out with, but yeah, we've always wanted to put a conference on that is the best of the best, best professionals, helping people with what they want to learn. So in June I will be hosting a three-day conference, uh, and it will be a monster, but everything that I do right now is either a clinic take care of my own health or do that.

Mike:

Right. Cause you're so focused on that. Right. And that's June of 20, 22, because I expect people to be listening to this podcast episode for decades, Dave. So I, I want them to know, so you'll have to search the archives of Google to find that one day, but, but that's awesome. All right. And then last one of the high fives. How do we learn more about you? Where can we find more about Dave Taylor?

Dave:

Yes. Anything shift movement science on any social platform. So ship room and science.com um, shift on Instagram shift on YouTube pick docs from Twitter. And that's how we put everything out for all of our content from the podcast. The ship's show is our main educational vehicle, which is just long form podcasts.

Mike:

Awesome. Dave, thanks so much. Great episode. I really appreciate all the insightful answers. That was awesome. I think people are going to really learn a ton from this. So thanks so much for coming on the show.

Dave:

Pleasure man,