The Sports Physical Therapy Podcast
The Sports Physical Therapy Podcast
Golf Injuries and Performance with Mike Scaduto - Episode 35
Full show notes: https://mikereinold.com/golf-injuries-and-performance-with-mike-scaduto
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Hey Mike, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. How's everything going?
Mike Scaduto:Everything's going great. Thanks for having me.
Mike Reinold:Yeah, no, I, I, this is probably a long overdue, uh, episode, right? We, um, you and I work together, uh, every day, you know, face to face, so we see each other. We talk a lot about injuries. Um, we, we spend a good amount of time ourselves thinking and dreaming about golf. So, um, you know, having you come on and do a podcast about this specialty area that you, you put so much of your energy towards, I think is a bit overdue. So thanks for joining us.
Mike Scaduto:Yeah, I mean, I really appreciate you having me. Obviously we've worked together for upwards of six years now, and it's, it's really an honor to be invited onto this podcast. I'm a big fan of the podcast.
Mike Reinold:Yeah. I can't believe it when you say that too. I still think, you know, everything in Covid is like a different timeframe.
Mike Scaduto:We're coming up on six years,
Mike Reinold:That's amazing. You know, congrat, you know, but it, it's, it's been awesome to watch you, uh, grow and develop. For those that don't know Mike from our other podcast, they ask Mike Rein podcast where we go through questions. Mike's been one of our staff therapists here at Champion for six years. Right. I mean that's, and that's a long time working hand in hand with. With all the therapists here, we have a champion. So it's been really awesome to see you grow. Not only you know yourself as an individual, like in within this profession, but how you were able to grow a niche in an area that you wanted to focus on professionally and how you really successfully did that. Right. Um, like how much your, your patient population right now do you think revolves around golfers?
Mike Scaduto:Yeah, it does. It certainly fluctuates over the course of the year. Um, but I would say at, at the peak it's probably 50% golf and 50% baseball. Um, pretty even split. And then as we go through the golf season, you know, there's, there's kind of more and more golfers that will come in. Um, and then, you know, as we get into the summer, I think a lot of golfers are, are trying to go out and play on the course. So maybe we see a little bit fewer, but, um, it definitely fluctuates over the course of the year.
Mike Reinold:Yeah, you, you, you'll see fewer initially until they all start getting hurt or they start playing poorly and then they're back. Right?
Mike Scaduto:Right? And they got a big tournament coming up in two days. Let's see what we can do.
Mike Reinold:That, that's awesome. Well, well in, in addition to that, you know, Mike is the, um, the co-chair or the, the second chair, I don't know what we call your chair of, of the Golf Sig of the American Academy of Sports Physical Therapy. So, you know, again, this is one of those areas that Mike's dug deep on and really. Started to focus a little bit more now, not just clinically, but okay, now how do, how do we start staying on top of the research? How do we start collaborating together as a profession to help each other grow as, as golf specialists? Right? So, um, I guess before we get too much into golf injuries and stuff, um, any updates on, on the golf sig and what you guys have been up to? Two.
Mike Scaduto:Yeah. Um, I mean, you know, the mission of the Golf Sig is to, is to help. Um, people that are looking for a resource within physical therapy, be able to find and connect with other professionals that are like-minded, um, that have some experience in the field. Um, so we're putting out content on the mobilized platform. Um, we have some plans on how to progress our content over the next year. Um, really excited. Lindsay Becker is working hard on that. Um, we're, we sent a few proposals in for CSM next year. Um, so we're hoping to get some good presentations and some really good content at csm, but, Uh, definitely encourage anyone that's interested in golf and a physical therapist or, uh, you know, part of anyone that's part of the, a PTA to check out the, the golf sig.
Mike Reinold:Yeah, and it, it seems like a great resource too, because if you want to get into golf specifics, right? It's, it's a group of people. You can come, you can come ask questions to us, and I just feel like it's, it's a good, it's a good community to be able to grow and develop some of these skill sets and, and, you know, Hey, how'd you do this? How'd you, how, how'd you reach out to your local community and get. You know, some more people in your clinic. So, um, yeah, so thanks again for doing that. Kudos to you for doing that and um, you know, appreciate that. But, um, but let's, let's dig in cause I think we wanna get into some cooler topics. I apologize, I shouldn't have started with that. I was just excited. I wanted to hear how the sig was going, but, um, for, for a more exciting topic, Let's start with the top, and I think this is, you know, the, the easy one to start with, with, with these sports specific podcasts, but tell us a little bit about golf injuries. What are some of the most common injuries that you see in, in, you know, how does somebody that just wants to get started into this world of golf injuries in working with golfers? What do they need to be ready for in terms of big injury patterns that you see?
Mike Scaduto:Yeah, I mean, I would start out by saying that, uh, golf, uh, as a whole. Um, is, is kind of viewed as we're getting better at, uh, the way that we look at golf, but kind of viewed as a leisurely activity, but really is, it is very stressful on the body, right? So the amount of force that we're putting through, um, certain areas of our body is extremely high. So the golf swing is stressful on the body. So I think if there is a history of previous injury, um, it is very possible that that could flare up a previous injury. And I think that's a lot of what we see. Um, so the number one golf related injury would be low back pain. Um, you know, if someone has a history of low back pain, which would be fairly common, if they go out and hitting a bunch of golf balls or at the beginning of the season they're ramping up their golf program, um, that could certainly flare up their symptoms. Um, then from there, you know, shoulder pain is another very common injury in the golf world. Um, we tend to see a lot of hyper mobile athletes. Um, potentially, you know, dealing with some instability at certain ranges in the golf swing. Um, but I think the overall picture is that within the golf swing, we're moving our joints to end range of motion at a very high speed and velocity that creates a certain amount of stress or strain at the joint. Um, and on other tissues, there's certain tissues that are gonna be overloaded, uh, and certain tissues that are gonna be overloaded because of the asymmetrical nature of the swing. Um, so over time these injuries tend to creep up and they, and they tend to get. Potentially progressively worse over the course of the golf season unless we address the underlying issue.
Mike Reinold:Right. And I kind of like how you brought that up cuz you, you could argue there's a lot of underlying issues in golfers, right? I mean, we, you and I both, you know, we, we've got the bug ourselves a little bit where, you know, we, we spend a lot of time practicing and, and thinking about that. Um, of all the sports, and maybe this is, this is a misconception I have in my head, but of all the sports, it seems like you can have so many. Different ways to try to hit that ball. So many different mechanical, you know, I, I hate to call'em faults because I don't wanna necessarily call them faults, but so many different ways that somebody can use their body to hit the ball. It, it seems like that's one of the first things we talk about as sports physical therapists all the time is, is optimizing movement. Right? So for, for, for. You know, energy transfer for minimizing injuries to reduce stress. Um, uh, to me it seems like golf, there's so many bad golf swings. I guess they'll just say it. There's so many bad swing, including our own right. That, that we do all the time. You know? H how much do you think that these injuries have to do with a variety of factors versus it. Is it poor mechanics? Is it too much workload? Are they practicing too much? Do they, do they not golf for a week and then get a giant extra jumbo bucket at the driving range and just pound balls? Like, like, tell me a little bit more, I mean, uh, about why you sincerely think that we're seeing all these injuries.
Mike Scaduto:Well, I think you, you covered a lot of ground there. I think there's a lot to, uh, a lot to go into. Um, I would from a technical side, right? The golf swing is, is obviously a highly technical skill. Um, so the technique can shift stress around in the body, right? The, the goal that we're trying to accomplish is obviously hit the ball on the center of the club face with the maximum amount of speed, um, for a full swing, um, to have a consistent ball flight and have the ball do what we want it to do. Now everyone kind of goes about that in a different way, so everyone's swing looks a little bit different. Um, but there's certain key characteristics in the golf swing. Early extension, sway, and slide are, are I think the three biggest ones that we see, um, that have been shown to put significantly more stress on the lumbar spine. Um, so a typical driver golf swing at maximum max effort is about eight times body weight on the lumbar spine. Um, compressive force, so pushing down on the spine. So that's already a lot of stress on the spine. If we add in something like an early extension, which is the hips moving towards the ball, um, that can increase the sheer force on the spine as well as that compressive force we know that can irritate the neural structures, the disc, facet joints. Um, there can also be a muscular component to that. So I think that the technical side of things, Because it's an asymmetrical sport that is repeated, you know, so many times. Um, if we have a cumulative amount of stress and we're adding in these, these technical faults, certainly think that could be a recipe for someone having a pain problem or having some kind of injury.
Mike Reinold:Right, and and we always say that too. It's not that necessarily there's one great way to swing or to throw a ball or to kick or to do, you know, any sort of sport activity. There isn't one way, but there are different ways you can apply. Stress through it. Right. And there's somewhere that stress is efficient, right. With producing the task, like you said, consistently hit that ball. Right. Um, and sometimes the, the, the, the suboptimal movements that we see take away from that and put just stress on the joint. So, uh, you know, that's, I, to me I think that's fascinating. Like, like how much stress we have in the low back. And, and I can say that. A lot of people don't move their bodies probably well enough to take that stress off. Right. Do you, do you see issues like, like, you know, maybe this is leading into your next question here a little bit, but like, like, like somebody comes in with low back pain. How much time are you spending on looking at their low back versus looking at the rest of the body to see what, maybe putting that extra stress on the back?
Mike Scaduto:Yeah, absolutely. I think from a, from a physical therapy standpoint, um, our, our philosophy is we want to try and find, you know, if the best that we can, what's, what's generating pain for this person or if there's a structure that we can. Identify or a test, a certain amount of lumbar spine tests that we can do to kind of narrow down, um, pain or in the lumbar spine specifically if we're looking for a directional preference or something like that. So we do look at the lumbar spine to try and be as specific as possible for that person because I do think it guides their. Their treatment, uh, plan from a physical therapy standpoint. Um, but then from a, a movement optimization standpoint, right, we're looking at the rest of the body. So the lumbar spine obviously sits between the thoracic spine and the hips, right? Those are two key areas that need to be able to rotate, um, in the golf swing. And we have a pretty good idea of how much rotation. We're looking for, um, for out of those two, uh, kind of areas. And we tend to see a lot of people that are stiff, particularly in the, uh, thoracic spine and in hip internal rotation when someone falls into that pattern, a a lot of our treatment plan is designed around increasing mobility, um, in order to try and take some stress away from the lumbar spine. Now we do see people that are on the other end of the spectrum. People that are hyper mobile. They have a ton of rotation through their thoracic spine, a ton of rotation through their hips. Um, that may also, you know, cause a different type of stress on the spine, uh, the lumbar spine and our treatment plan for that person is, is pretty significantly different. Uh, different, we're focusing on strength and stability and motor control. Um, so we try and look at, you know, what's causing the pain problem. Try to narrow, narrow that down as much as we can. And then we're trying to categorize people roughly into two or three different groups. The people that are a little more stiff, they, they work on flexibility, mobility. The people that are on the more hyper mobile end of the spectrum, they get, you know, stability, strength, motor controlled, uh, base program.
Mike Reinold:That's awesome. And I like the way you try to take a large global approach to that, right? Versus trying to make everything so complicated. Right. I, I think it's one thing we do as a professional a little bit here too. Sure. You have back pain. So as a physical therapist, somebody working with this person, you need to know how to treat low back pain. Right. You need to understand how to get that low back pain settled down, do some baseline things to, to kind of work through the rehabilitation of that low back pain. But if you don't understand how the rest of the body interacts with the sport activity that you're dealing with, so the golf swing, so the hip, the thoracic spine, just as examples here, if you don't understand that, I think that's where sometimes we probably don't. Do as best as we can for the person in front of us. Right? So, you know, we talk about this a lot when we, when we talk about PTs that wanna specialize in a sport is that you have to understand how to work with joints and, and body parts and, and common injuries, but you also have to understand how the rest of the body interacts with that because you can have some things that you'll never get over the hump with if you don't address things. Like you said, maybe the hip, maybe, maybe the mid back. Right. And, and I just think that's such a great way of thinking about it. Um, you know, how many times do you think you see somebody that comes in and, you know, tightness versus hypermobility? You know, what, what's the percentage of the equation of people that you see? Because again, we're talking about a, like a recreational sport for adults versus, versus a lot of kids. Right. And do you, do you see that changing as. The teenage athlete to the collegiate athlete, to the pro, to even the adult recreational. How do these people present differently in your hands?
Mike Scaduto:Yeah, I think it definitely changes throughout the, throughout the course of, uh, the lifespan, right? So the younger junior golfers through high school and college, they tend to be more hyper mobile. Um, I think people do get a little bit stiffer as we age. Now, some of that is genetic and hereditary, where, you know, if you're, um, super loose joint person as you get older, you may be able to maintain some of your flexibility. Um, but I think typically the younger clients that come in and they have so much rotational mobility, they aren't very strong, they have difficulty with motor control. They don't know where their body is in space. Um, when we look at their golf swing, it tends to be very long and there tends to be, um, areas where you can see they're just leaking some power because they, they can't control, um, the ability basically to stop their body from rotating in the backswing, they get very long and there's a power leak there. First is, maybe we'll talk about the older, kind of more hypomobile or stiffer person. Um, they tend to struggle in creating width or turn in the backswing, and that has a lot of implications for how they, how they come down into the downswing. So if you can't create a full shoulder turn in your backswing, um, we tend to see an over the top move with the arms because the arms will kind of initiate that downswing. And cuz we're trying to create speed, but we can't really rotate our body very well. So we see that over the top move tends to be coupled with some kind of early extension at the hips. Um, but again, our, our philosophy is that your golf swing is a reflection of how your body moves. So if you have a stiff body with not a lot of mobility, your golf swing is probably going to reflect that. Um, and you're going to have to compensate for any movement abnormalities or any movement faults that you have. Um, so we tend to see all these different funky things happen in the golf swing, but if you do take a step back and, and think of the body first, a lot of those faults tend to make sense, uh, when you look at it through that lens.
Mike Reinold:Right, for sure. And, and even not just injury risk, but people that are struggling to make a mechanical change, for example, they wonder why they struggle sometimes, right? They, they, they, they're trying to do something over and over again, but their body isn't in position to actually allow that to happen efficiently. Uh, no wonder why this is a, um, uh, a very frustrating sport. I'll leave it at that, right? Where, where.
Mike Scaduto:Yeah, and I'll, I'll tell the, I'll tell the golfer first session. Say, it's not, it's not my, I don't view it as my job to fix your swing. For me, I want to be able to allow your bo, uh, teach you how to move your body in a way that you can get into a certain position. And then your golf coach takes you the rest of the way and they, they teach you how to incorporate that into your swing. So we're always a few degrees separated from the actual golf swing itself, but we're trying to allow the body to move to create context for the feeling that they will have in the golf swing.
Mike Reinold:I, I think that's great too. And I think that's another area that sometimes young. PTs get stuck a little bit, I think trying to be, uh, a little bit of everything and trying to give swing tips and swing advice, right? And, um, you know, I, I'm not necessarily against that, right? So like, uh, maybe in and of itself that isn't terrible, but I think there's always a better approach if you work with somebody that specializes in these things, right? So, collaborating with your local PGA professionals, some, some coaches in your area, it, it just makes a more. Uh, rewarding environment, I would say for probably both you and the PGA coach, like the, the golf coach as well as the, the person, right? And that, and I think that's, that's something that young professionals miss sometimes. Um, let's shift gears for a second and talk about that, Mike. So I know you have some strong relationships with some, um, Um, swing coaches in the community. If, if you are a new physical therapist, you're starting to get in this, what are some of the tips that they can do to establish some of these, these relationships and, and, and really help them blossom, right? Because it's one thing to go say hi, bring a coffee and say, Hey, I'm, I'm down the street. Send me your patients. But how do you really get that relationship to bloom?
Mike Scaduto:Yeah, I guess I can, I can kind of tell the origin story of some of the relationships I've made with, with the PGA coaches and, and Mike, I give you a lot of credit cuz it was kind of your idea in a way. Um, but so, you know, obviously a lot of, a lot of the golf physical therapists, um, the people that are really passionate about golf tend to play golf. Right. So if you're into golf yourself, I think one of the best ways to make connections in the space is to either go out and get a lesson from a teaching professional or to try and play golf with, with these people as well. I think that's a great way to build a connection. So when I was first starting out, new grad physical therapists working at Champion, um, this awesome, we heard about this awesome golf teaching facility opening up, you know, a couple miles down the road and I think I was. In the fir the paint wasn't even dry on the walls and the simulators weren't all the way installed. Um, and I was getting a lesson from, you know, this swing coach and didn't tell him I was a physical therapist, didn't tell him, you know, we were building this, this golf physical therapy, um, program down to champion. But I just took lessons from him cuz I was one, I wanted to get better at the game myself. And two, I wanted to kind of learn his teaching philosophy. Um, and it ended up blossoming into a pretty good relationship between the two of us and. And I would say I credit a lot of the success, um, or, you know, a lot of clients still to this day come from, you know, this individual who has been hugely helpful in, in my career and my knowledge base. So I think the collaboration with a swing coach is vital. Um, if you're looking to make that connection, you don't have to come out and say, Hey, like, I'm a physical therapist. I want to work with your, uh, with your clients, you know, become a client of that person. And take lessons and build a, build a different type of relationship and let that blossom over time into one that's very trustful. You know, you're not trying to necessarily undercut that, that person in any way. Um, but you've built a certain amount of trust where they feel good about sending their clients to you, knowing that they're gonna be treated the right way, but also that that line of communication between the two of you is gonna be open.
Mike Reinold:Yeah. That's awesome. And, and I really like how you ended it with that too, where it's not just sending you people, but it's also having that open communication. And I, I think that's something that, At Champion, you know, we got from the pro sports model, right? It's a collaborative approach in pro sports and collegiate sports, right? Where coaches, skill coaches, uh, strength coaches, therapists, every, everything, athletic trainers, everything under the sun, all come together and collaborate. And at Champion we try to do that with, with everything. The, I think one approach that we've never done at Champion in that we never will is we don't go around to every golf facility and just drop off business cards. Right. That's, I mean, you're just, that's random, right? What we do is we create relationships with people that we want to, right. So if your swing lessons with that coach Mike, um, went poorly, do you think you would've even wanted. I mean, maybe you would business-wise, but Right. Like you like it, it, it wouldn't have grown. Right? It's you guys, you got together and you jive. Right? There is a connection, there's a like-mindedness and even personality-wise that led to the relationship growing. And I think if you go into it with that, and then also we're also not selfish about it. We send as many people there and then, That they sent to us, right? So, um, you know, it, it's about taking that different approach, right, about actually trying to develop a relationship versus just a business arrangement, right? Mm-hmm.
Mike Scaduto:Yeah. I would say for, for physical therapists looking to get into the golf world, um, obviously PJ teaching professionals are a huge way to get into the industry and they're really good at what they do. Um, I think the, the ch the challenge and I think as a profession we're getting better at this. And I think golf as a whole is, is really getting better at understanding. Um, you know, the golf performance, physical therapy, uh, and physical aspect of the game. But making sure you communicate what you have to offer to that coach's clients and communicate it in a way where they understand what you're trying to do, um, and how it compliments what they're trying to do. I think that's, that's really the key to starting that relationship.
Mike Reinold:Yeah. And, and have it start with you, right? Like, I like how you went there and you became a client yourself because it's so much easier to, to understand and to connect with somebody when, when you do that. And what you did was you said, you said, I trust you. Right? And I believe in the concept of coaching, like, and. Paying somebody to help me to get better at something. So it's a great way to, um, to, to start that relationship. So, um, so if you're trying to do the same thing, you know, take some tips from that, I think that would be, you know, very helpful. It's, it's not about throwing business cards around and buying lunch and, you know, Showing up with, with coffee and, and trying to persuade people to send'em to you. It's about building relationships and then collaborating. Remember the last thing Mike said was it's you open up communication. You know, we text back and forth like, Hey, I think you're seeing this guy tomorrow. Here's the three things I've been working on. Like, what can you do with his swing to help take some pressure off his back? What a great approach. Right. Like that, that that's, that's how you, you, you know, you build successful businesses, I think. Um, and then Mike, you, you, you, let's switch gears now here, and let's talk to the other end of the spectrum, which is probably the larger end is every golfer wants to get better. Right. So, you know, I, I wish, just like most humans, I wish would come to physical therapy sooner to try to minimize their injuries in the future. I wish golfers came and had a little bit more of an emphasis on being proactive with their body to not only reduce injuries, but to get a little bit better. Um, how does your. How does your approach change when you don't have an acute injury, but you're looking to actually enhance somebody's ability to golf better their performance? What do you do differently?
Mike Scaduto:Yeah, I think, uh, the, in the absence of an acute injury, it kind of opens up, uh, more assessment tools for me. So our assessment is we, we do a TPI based assessment. We've added in some different type of movement screens as well, but we u utilize the TPI screen to, um, pick up on any, you know, mobility, flexibility, um, or motor control issues in the swing. Um, that's a pretty standard assessment. And then in the absence of an injury, or even with an injury, we'll we'll move into our power testing. So from a performance standpoint, we try to break down the components of how people create club head speed and power in the golf swing. We test those to compare those to our normative data and find out where we wanna spend, uh, the most of our time. In the gym, um, in order to improve those metrics. So, for example, vertical jump has been a really key metric for us, and we come in and we compare, you know, on the force plates, we have all types of data that we can gather on, on golfers. Um, but we, we compare that to our normative data and say, you know, based on your age group, your handicap, here's where you rank compared to other golfers. Um, if we got these numbers up, you know, this may unlock some more clubhead speed for you, if we can kind of carry that into your swing. Now, let's, let's emphasize that in your next program, let's give you some more vertical force development. Uh, maybe we're doing some kind of jumping. Uh, weighted jumping or some deadlift, but with an emphasis on speed. Um, so I think the, from a performance standpoint, our assessment really does, um, change our, our treatment and change our strength and conditioning program, um, to maximize those qualities that we're, that we're going after.
Mike Reinold:Yeah. And I, I like the way you approach that too. It's, it's, you could blindly say, well, just, you know, start a generic program. Right. Get stronger. Right. But, you know, I think one thing that our crew at Champion, you know, Dush Podell, Jonah Mon Lock, they've really taken the, the lead on the sports science initiatives and actually looking at force data and saying, Um, is strength what you need or is power what you need? Is to move that strength faster? Is that what you need? Um, and, and you know, to me that's some like next level details for a recreational, adult golfer that has huge impact, right? So, you know, for me, I, I think it's been awesome to see you guys develop that to, to have such a comprehensive program. Um, Is it the same in golf as it is for baseball? Where for us, we, we get a lot of people when they're dealing with an injury for the first time and then they become clients with us forever. Right. They just, they, they continue to, to, to see now like, oh, I should have been doing this before I get, I got hurt. Um, is that a similar thing that you see with golfers?
Mike Scaduto:Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, a, again, it comes down to. Um, every golfer wants to play more golf and play better golf. So if you can, if you can make an impact on how their body feels every time they go out onto the T, um, I think that's gonna create a lot of buy-in. And they're gonna, they're gonna really adhere to that program, um, that you give them. And of course, the program changes over time. Um, but again, we want to, we, we want them to feel as good as possible every time they play golf. So that is certainly in the back of my mind when I'm writing a program or working with the strength coaches. Um, and depends on the time of year when they're in season. You know, we're, we're, we're trying to minimize muscle soreness. Um, we're trying to optimize, you know, how they feel in performance. So I would say if we do it the right way, golfers will, will see a pretty immediate, um, benefit and they'll be, they'll adhere to the program, um, for a pretty long time.
Mike Reinold:That's awesome. And it's been pretty good. It's been almost a half hour, and I haven't asked any questions specific to my golf game yet. So, um, I think we're, I think I'm overdue, but, you know, bringing up that point is very interesting. I just had this conversation with one of the clients that you're working with, um, out on the golf course, and we were, we were talking about this, but you know, We don't spend the winter wa taking a four hour walk right up and down hills and doing those, those sort of things. Like, so what, what, you sit at a desk job all day, right? And then you just get up and you go golf and you're walking the chorus, you're carrying your bag, you're doing all these things. Our bodies get tight and sore and stiff, and then that impacts the swing. Right? And it's funny, we, we've talked like sometimes I'm not even sore from golfing. I'm sore from, from walking and carrying my bag more than I am from golfing, right?
Mike Scaduto:Yeah. Uh, this would be an interesting study and I, I don't know if it exists, but, um, you know, we talked about vertical force production and, uh, the impact it has on clubhead speed. I wonder, you know, fatigue in relation to your ability to crave vertical force over the course of a round, uh, be an interesting study. I know from, for myself. As soon as my legs start getting tired, um, I, I kind of lose the swing a little bit. I start getting very upper body dominant. I'll start hitting some poles, um, so I can feel it coming, like as I get further into a round, maybe 14, 15th hole, my legs are tired. Um, especially if we're playing at Oakley where it's a little bit hilly. Um, and then my swing, my swing changes and, you know, it, it becomes very upper body dominant. And for someone, With an injury history, um, particularly shoulder, elbow, even low back, that, that could be a time in the realm where they start feeling it. Maybe they feel pretty good at the beginning and, and over the course of the round it creeps up.
Mike Reinold:Yeah. It's, it's super interesting, like, and I would say the part I'd share, cuz I'm, I'm similar myself, um, when, if I'm in a match, like in like a comp competitive type thing or something and I'm in a cart, I, I'm better, I'm, I'm, I, I golf better when I take a cart. Now I never take a cart cause I don't wanna take a cart. Right. But like, I'm, I am. I golf better, I'm more consistent. My swing is more consistent. So that actually motivated me a lot this winter to get on a strength training program to, to get, you know, a little bit more, you know, I was doing more, you know, I was riding my peloton a little bit more, trying to get some leg endurance stuff going right. Like, um, and it worked. And, and, and, you know, I mean, I'm a busy guy, just like all us. I didn't put that much effort into it, but I did some and it worked. And, you know, my body feels so much better going into this golf season. So, um, you know, it's an interesting thing. But again, taking a step back from the lens of us and the listeners of this podcast now, like this, this is where you can grow a golf business so easily in my mind. Right. If, if you're passionate about golf yourself, right. And, you know, some of the things we talked about in this episode already, you know, is understanding the common injuries, understanding a bit of the swing, seeing how they play together, um, and really just. You know, helping people, not just, not just get rid of that back pain, but to optimize their body so they feel better next round. You've got a lifelong client that's gonna come to you for, for various things. So, um, you know, really, really good stuff. Um, Mike, before we switch gears, it's one other thing I wanted to talk about, but before we switch gears, any, what other advice do you have for someone, you know, continuing down this, this, this, this. This thought process. What advice do you have for people that are looking to get started specializing in golf? You know, what are some areas that they can learn from? So, obviously you mentioned tpi. Maybe you can, you know, elaborate a little bit on that. But what are some areas that they, they can start learning from and other advice that you'd give them?
Mike Scaduto:Yeah, I think there's, there's so many resources out there. Um, I think TPI is a very, um, it's a great resource to learn from. That's the Titleist Performance Institute. Um, you know, they have been around for a while now and kind of been at the forefront of, of golf, uh, from a physical standpoint. So I think that would be the first place. Take the TPI level one, learn the movement screen, learn the body swing connection. I think that's a no-brainer. Um, I think you gotta start there. Um, from there, I think you could, you could go into, um, mastering each joint in individually, so, you know, as a physical therapist. Learning how to treat each joint, learning how to, um, improve mobility. So there's all different kinds of courses and, uh, philosophies around that. I think you don't have to marry yourself to one philosophy or one type of treatment. Um, but being able to blend all of those together to achieve the goal that you're trying to get, I think is super important. Um, from there, I think going into strength and conditioning principles, Um, learning how to over the long term train these athletes, um, and or, and or building a relationship with a strength coach, um, that, you know, either specializes in golf or has an interest like yourself in, in growing into the game of golf. Um, would be hugely helpful. Someone to collaborate and bounce ideas off. Um, and then learning from golf coaches. So I think it's, it's kind of, you know, being a, being a really good physical therapist, learning how to treat different kind of, uh, each of these kind of common injuries in the golf world. Learning how from strength and conditioning coaches, um, how to train these athletes in the gym. And then learning from. PGA professionals and, and, uh, about the technical aspects of the swing and how, how golfers learn how to play golf.
Mike Reinold:Yeah. And, and I, I think that if there's two key partners in this that I would try to build on is, I think first and foremost, find some good swing coaches near you. Um, I think that's gonna be the, the, probably the. Best relationship. But don't underestimate also finding that strength coach too, right? Like, you know, especially if you're a physical therapist, that you just have a small gym in like an, in an office, right? And it's not equipped to really handle that. Like, I don't wanna say don't force it, right? Because that's, that's not the point getting at. But it's much better if you, if you get a collaborative relationship with this nice gym down the street that focuses on golfers, I think what you'll do is you, you kind of all kind of like, you know, Hit your skillset, the, the best and probably get the most out of it for the person. So, you know, find a good swing coach, find a good strength coach that specializes in that, because when we put the three heads together, wow, that's a great outcome for golfers. Right? So, um, you know, really, really cool thing to do. Um, So Mike, thanks so much for, for joining us for this one. One other thing we wanted to talk about, this is a real interesting topic that I think some PTs are, are gonna be interested in, but you've actually just recently released a product. You're selling, and I know it's funny, we're gonna almost sounds like we have a golf swing training aid that we're about to announce. Right. But no, that's not it. Right. Um, as a physical therapist, you just, you just started manufacturing and selling a device for people that just had shoulder surgery and helping them sleep at night. Right. The shoulder sleeper. Right. So, um, I, I've, you know, been, I've been watching you do this for a couple years now, I think. Right. Um, it's a long process. I mean, you, you invented, you made up a thing and made it appear in real life and then now you're trying to sell it. It's amazing. Right. But like, you know, to come up with a physical product to help people, it was amazing. But tell us a little bit about the shoulder sleeper.
Mike Scaduto:Yeah. Uh, it's definitely been, it's been a long journey and it's been kind of a wild ride, um, in learning every single day. Things I didn't know, uh, and things I didn't even know existed that I, that I just need to learn and kind of figure out with my, with my partners. Um, but really, you know, we started the company with the mission of helping people sleep better after shoulder surgery. Um, as a physical therapist, you know, treat who treats a lot of shoulders and, and elbows. Um, you know, a lot of patients come in and say, I have, I have trouble sleeping. Um, and it's not just for the first, you know, four to six weeks after shoulder surgery, uh, while they're in the sling. I think nobody likes being in the, in the sling. It's uncomfortable. The next strap is, is irritating, uh, especially while in bed. Um, sometimes people have to sleep in a recliner. Um, it's also when they come outta the sling, sometimes it's difficult to prevent that person from sleeping on their surgical side and that can irritate the shoulder as well. Um, so we wanted to come up with a product that, that kind of met that goal, um, but was also very comfortable. So, um, you know, the, the company was founded by myself and Sam, Jacob Sack, my business partner, um, who was actually a patient of mine who had shoulder surgery. And, you know, he, he came to me one day. He's a, he's a professional baseball player as well. Um, he came to me one day and, and said, Hey, like, my shoulder feels great, but like every time I wake up, like it's pretty sore. Um, I, I roll onto it at night and. And it wakes me up. Um, everything else feels great. I just, I can't sleep comfortably. Uh, what should I do? And I showed him a way to kind of stuff a few pillows under his arm and I was like, Hey, just, just do this. And he is like, can I just buy that? And we looked around online and, and, and literally couldn't find anything that we saw that would be, you know, uh, stable, stable enough, or comfortable enough to kind of solve his problem. And I will say, Sam, Uh, you know, convinced me, kind of like had to push me. He's like, let's build it man. Let's make it, um, and it took about 14 months, uh, to, to get a viable product that we could, that we could offer to customers. Um, and it's still a day in, day out struggle. There's still a lot of things that pop up that are difficult. So I would say building a physical product, um, is, is not the easiest thing to do. Um, and it's, it's definitely very time consuming.
Mike Reinold:Yeah, I mean, you had to design it. You had to find a person to make a mold, to make them for, you had to manufacture it. You're, you have to then figure out how to get it from there to. Uh, to be able to ship it to people when they, they sell. Right. Like what, what are some of the, the, the things that surprised you the most about this process?
Mike Scaduto:Yeah. Uh, um, you know, obviously the, the amount of time that it takes. Um, I think you have an idea in your head and trying to communicate that to people that maybe don't understand the, um, the specifics of the product, right? So you're dealing with a lot of engineers, um, that understand, you know, the body, but not necessarily what we are trying to achieve. So trying to communicate that to different professions, um, to, for example, to build the 3D computer model that we could send to. An engineering company, um, to carve that model out of a block of foam for our very first prototype, right? So, um, that was, that was the first challenge I think from a legal standpoint. Um, you know, trying to apply for these patents, um, becomes very expensive. Um, but you, I think that's something that you definitely have to do. So if you are looking to develop a physical product that is patentable, um, get yourself a patent attorney. Um, I think that's something that, you know, is, is worth it in the long run, but an added expense. Um, and then from a manufacturing standpoint, it is, it's expensive. Everything is expensive. The, the materials, the labor, um, so, you know, if you're, again, it's, it's an endeavor, um, to, to, to try and create a physical product and bring it to market. Um, but it is exciting at the same time. And, you know, it's, it's. We've gotten some good feedback about the product and that's, that makes it worth it.
Mike Reinold:Yeah, I think every person when they see it, they say, I wish I had this right. I mean, it's, it's, it's pretty common. So, uh, where can people find out more about the shoulder sleeper? Mike?
Mike Scaduto:Yeah. The best place would be at our website, shoulder sleeper.com. Um, we do try and put out some educational content as well. We have a blog, um, with, you know, very much shoulder surgery and shoulder surgery. Trouble sleeping related content. Um, so we, we try and educate people as well, not just sell the product. We have a free e-book that could be downloaded, that's a pre-operative guide, um, to shoulder surgery, talks about all the things that you would need to know heading into shoulder surgery. Um, so again, we want that educational component from our company. Our mission is to, is to help people, um, the best that we can. So there are some good resources on the website. And then we're active on social media. Um, Instagram is at the shoulder sleeper. Those would probably be the two top places.
Mike Reinold:Yeah, and if, obviously if you're dealing with some, some patients with shoulder surgery, this is something where you can just send them to the website, right Mike? They can get this themselves and.
Mike Scaduto:Absolutely. It's, it's a, you know, direct to consumer model. They can order it on. Our website gets delivered in a few days and, you know, hopefully they're on their way to better sleep.
Mike Reinold:Yeah, I mean, to sleep better for 150 bucks for, you know, four to six weeks after shoulder surgery. I think a ton of people would do that. So, um, you know, kudos to you. I maybe we, we have to do another episode where we just talk about, uh, the, the making a physical therapy product because man, you just, you just started a business. This is like a whole thing.
Mike Scaduto:It's a whole thing. I, I, I didn't realize when I, when Sam and I started, but it's a whole thing.
Mike Reinold:Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. Uh, well we look forward to continuing to see that grow. Uh, Mike, before we let you go, I'm gonna end with the high five. Five quick questions, five quick answers to learn a little bit about you and your thoughts and your head and that sort of stuff. But first question, what are you currently doing yourself? What are you reading? What are you working on? What are you doing for your own professional development?
Mike Scaduto:Yeah, I've been, uh, I've been nervous about these questions. I listened to your podcast. I knew they were coming. Um, no, I think it's been a lot of, um, Recently it's been a lot of marketing related content. Um, so digital marketer and trying to, to learn how to promote the shoulder sleeper pillow. Um, from a clinical standpoint, um, I've been doing a deep dive into the shoulder trying to, to really understand, you know, shoulder surgeries and the different, uh, surgical procedures that are going on, um, and how those are evolving over time, um, from a clinical standpoint and from from the shoulder sleeper standpoint.
Mike Reinold:That's awesome. I like it. Um, and you know, to give Mike credit too, I, we, this, this is seven o'clock on a Monday morning that we, um, that we did this and we both just woke up and I'm like, oh man, I forgot to send you questions ahead of time. Sorry about that. So he's going blind here, so I give him credit. So luckily a past listener, I like that. That's awesome. But, um, all right. Second question. What's one thing that you've recently changed your mind about? Professionally.
Mike Scaduto:Okay. Um. You know, I'm, I'm awkward silence here. Awkward pause. Um, yeah, I would say probably the emphasis, you know, if we're going specific to golf, I think we've learned a lot about the vertical force requirements in the golf swing. And, you know, I think a lot of what I used used to do, looking back at it, was very rotational power focused. Um, and maybe I missed that vertical force component. So I would say, you know, the addition of more. Vertical force training in golfers versus just working on rotational power production would be something.
Mike Reinold:Right. I like that. That's a good one. I think a lot of people, uh, have done that in their careers. Right. We, you know, and not to say that rotation's not important, but I think we've all learned that. Vertical, you know, since we have technology now and we look at the amount of force that we see, that vertical is huge. So, um, that's a great one. I like that. Um, you work with a lot of our students at Champion, obviously. What's the best piece of advice that you like to give our clinical students at Champion?
Mike Scaduto:Yeah, I think we see, we see so many different students coming in the door with all different types of experience levels, um, and different interests, right? I think that there's, there's a lot of reasons why students get attracted to Champion. Um, but I think, you know, my biggest piece of advice for them is try to absorb, um, as much as they can and apply it to their own special niche. So they all come in with, with some type of interest level in some area. Um, take what they, they learn from a business standpoint, from a physical therapy standpoint, and try to apply that to their own niche. And I think they'll be very successful. Um, now as a new grad, sometimes that's a little bit difficult. I think you definitely have to master the basics first. Um, but, you know, have, have a goal in mind of where you're trying to work and try to apply those principles into a specific niche to help, uh, to help a subset of the population.
Mike Reinold:Yeah, that's a great one. I like it. Um, I feel like for the next two we've kind of been talking about a little bit, but what's coming up next for you?
Mike Scaduto:Yeah, I think from the, from the golf, um, golf Sig, again, we're putting out content on the, on the mobilized platform. Um, you know, Lindsay Becker is a great resource and we work in collaboration with that. Check us out at CSM next year for sure. Um, we're, we're putting together some really good, really good talks, um, at least in our proposals, so, um, that would be a big thing to check out. Um, shoulder sleeper is, is out there, it's out in the world. Um, so, you know, feel free to check that out if you're a physical therapist or if you're, you know, of, of some potentially a patient. Um, I mean, I would say those are really the big things that are going on right now.
Mike Reinold:Awesome. And then where can we learn more about you and all this stuff? And, and I think we should probably, this is probably a good spot to mention too, like, you know, we we're always humble about these things, right? But you've, you've built a really good golf performance training program that we sell on the internet to people, to golfers, right? So if, if I was. A PT or a strength coach that was starting to work with golfers. I just wanna see what your templated training program is. Now, obviously in person, we customize that a bunch, but we, where can people learn more about, you know, that sort of stuff and, and more about you in general, Mike, on social media and stuff.
Mike Scaduto:Yeah, I would say the, uh, on the, the Champion PTN performance website, we have kind of my bio in our golf, uh, philosophy, um, golf performance philosophy. We also have the Champion Advanced Golf Performance Program. Uh, bit of a mouthful, but that's, that's a great program, um, that we developed for people that have some gym experience. And are looking to, you know, improve their performance through a, through a gym-based training program. Um, and then we also, I also have in help develop a, an at-home, um, you know, golf performance program. It's called Fit for Speed. That's in collaboration with Adam Koff at Pure Drive Golf. Um, so that is more of a at home, very minimal equipment, um, golf performance training program. It also comes with six weeks of lessons and six weeks of a speed program. Um, so those would really be the top two programs. Um, and then social media at Mike Ski, d p t, um, would be another place to find some golf related content.
Mike Reinold:Yeah. Awesome. It's great stuff and definitely, uh, a bunch of great resources, uh, for you to check out if you're interested in specializing in golf injuries or performance training and really just starting to grow that business within your own niche. I think that'd be some great stuff. So Mike, thank you so much for joining us and coming on the podcast.
Mike Scaduto:Thanks for having me, Mike. Really appreciate it.
