Working with Hockey Players with Kevin Neeld - Episode 37

Each sport has it’s own unique considerations when it comes to performance enhancement and injury management. Ice hockey is one of the more unique sports, as skating is a lot different than the demands of field or court sports!

On this episode, I’m joined by Kevin Neeld, the Head Performance Coach for the Boston Bruins, and one of the leading strength coaches when it comes to working with hockey players. We’re going to talk about the role of a strength coach in the NHL and some of the unique considerations when working with hockey players.

Full show notes: https://mikereinold.com/working-with-hockey-players-with-kevin-neeld

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Transcript

0:31

On this episode of the sports physical therapy podcast, I'm joined by Kevin Nield. Kevin is the head performance coach of the Boston Bruins NHL team, and an expert in working with hockey players. In this episode, we talk about his job with the Bruins. The evolution of strength coaches in the NHL, and some of the unique considerations of working with hockey players.

Mike: 1:01

Hey, Kevin, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast today. How's everything going?

Kevin: 1:04

Things are going great, Mike, I appreciate you having me.

Mike: 1:07

Yeah, we've um, uh, we've been talking for months now, right Kev, about trying to get you on and obviously it's hard when you're working in pro sports and you know, you're in season, you're in the grind. I know it's hard. So, uh, you know, it's, it's exciting to be able to get, to have a chance to speak with you and, and talk a little bit about your experiences. So again, thank you for coming on the show.

Kevin: 1:27

No, it's my pleasure. I, uh, you, you know, you certainly know the demands of the in-season schedule as well as anybody. It's, uh, I wish we could have done this earlier, but I'm glad to be here now.

Mike: 1:37

Exactly. I like that. That's a good way of think of it. But, and congrats on the season, you know, if anyone here listening to Boston Bruins fans, like, like I am, um, you guys had a great season, so, you know, congrats on everything and, and I'm sure it just makes you more hungry for next year. Right.

Kevin: 1:52

Yeah, I think that's it. The, you know, obviously the, the ending wasn't what we were looking for, so you know, everybody. Uh, as, as individuals, I think players all the way up through the whole staff, including our department is just reflecting back on anything we could have done differently and, and things that we can do to put ourselves in a position to hopefully have another great season next year. So, um, it's been a, an active early off season for, for us, so it's been good.

Mike: 2:19

That's great. I love it. I love it. How, how busy are you in the off season with the players now? Because, and the reason why I ask that is, you know, with the Red Sox, so Kevin and I both worked in, you know, Boston professional sports, but nobody in the, with the Red Sox really lives here. So they all take off. Is it different for you guys with the Bruins?

Kevin: 2:36

It is. Yeah. So the, the off season, you know, we, after the season wraps up, generally the first couple weeks, we're pretty busy just. Putting final touches on our off-season program and getting that out to the players. And you know, we, we obviously have a lot of the infrastructure in place for how we want that off-season program to look, but our timeline is a moving target, meaning we don't know how long we're gonna play. So we don't know how long our off-season is gonna be until the season ends. So we have to make some adjustments to. Um, it obviously the total duration of the off-season program, but then as a result of that, we have to make some business decisions on, you know, what's coming out based on the timeline that we have and how does that change based on, uh, different goals that we have for different players and, and the different off-season program tracks that we have them in. So, um, generally the first couple weeks after the season wraps up are, are pretty busy getting that prepared and finalized and then, Uh, we have a fair amount of players that have children that are in school still. So they, even if they go go home to Canada or wherever they're from for the bulk of the off off season, they still stick around until their kids are outta school. And what will happen a lot of times is. The players that are in that situation will start their off-season training much sooner because they're around, um, you know, helps get them out of the house and kill some time during the day while their kids are in school. So, Um, they'll get an earlier jump and then they may take, you know, a, a week off here and there throughout the year instead of kind of front loading some rest at the end of the season and then, um, jumping into a program and sticking with it straight through the off-season. So we, uh, we have 10 players that are in town now in

Mike: 4:24

Oh

Kevin: 4:24

which is, you know, about half of our roster. So that's, uh, it's a lot for this time of year for us, for

Mike: 4:31

Yeah. I, I, you know, I always think it's fun though, right? You get to work with the players, you know, o oftentimes we call the in-season like a controlled fall, right? And we're just, we're just trying to get through sometimes right? And manage their workloads as best we can. But like to work with somebody in the off-season, I think that excites all of us. So, you know, hopefully, hopefully that, uh, you'll have a fun summer this summer.

Kevin: 4:52

it's al It's already had that feeling. You know, I think the, you're right, there's, I've heard it described as like a fog of war. Uh, you know, concept through that during the season, there's just so many moving parts that, you know, you're, in some respects, you're, you're trying to balance surviving the day with, you know, longer term planning and making sure that everything is staying on track and, and you're accomplishing what you need to there. But the off season there's a little bit less in terms of competing demands on the players. And, you know, I think it also is a, an opportunity to interact with the players with. Uh, maybe a little bit different of a stress load going into it. And then also just an opportunity to really take a step back in, in, in collaboration with them, get an idea of what are they hoping to accomplish during this period? What's gonna set them up to have the best start, uh, possible to the next season? And then, you know, what can we do to help navigate that process? And, um, you know, the off season for a lot of years I was in the private sector. The off season was kind of our. That was our playoff run. You know, that was our opportunity to make a real impact and, um, I still really enjoy that, that part of the process now.

Mike: 6:02

For sure, for sure. Well, you know, you, you, you bring up a lot of good points just kind of talking about, you know, the difference between in-season, off-season and all these things. And it, it, it really makes me think, um, even over the course of my career now, which is, you know, almost at the 25 year mark, I've really seen the role of the strength and conditioning professionals, the coaches in pro sports really evolve. Um, and man, 25 years ago, you could argue a lot of professional athletes didn't work out very hard, right? They didn't, they didn't train for performance as much as they did now. And we've seen that evolve. We've seen that, um, you know, that that push to work on performance enhancement. Uh, throughout the year as well, but now I think it's evolved even more. And I know you're one of the people on the cutting edge with that, but the focus now, not only just on performance, but workload management, recovery techniques, making sure that they're optimal for, for each game and, and getting ready as best we can. Um, why don't, why don't we start off with that? Why don't, why don't you tell us a little bit about your role with the Bruins in the N H L and, and maybe what a little bit of your day-to-day responsibilities are like, kind of around those types of things and how that's evolved.

Kevin: 7:10

Sure. Yeah. So, um, I'm the head performance coach with the Bruins. I have, uh, an assistant Tim LABAs here that. Um, works with me on a day-to-day basis and we are, our role specific to the NHL team, uh, revolves around the design and implementation of the performance training plan during the season. And then we also oversee all of our sports science initiatives. So, uh, we're fortunate to have Catapult here. Um, we have a heart rate monitoring system that we also use and then, Uh, we have some technology that we've integrated into our training process as well. Um, you know, all of those things. I are really designed to provide feedback to us and to the coaching staff, uh, and to the players about, you know, our, our things that support performance, trending in the right direction. So, you know, from a training. Program standpoint. You know, we have some goals of maintaining speed, of maintaining power, of maintaining strength throughout the season. Certain players were hoping to make progress in one or more of those areas. Other players were hoping to, uh, minimize losses with higher workloads. And, you know, obviously, Um, as a part of that, that the durability in making sure that players are healthy and available is, is a huge piece of it as well. So, um, you know, all the, the data that we collect as part of our training process is really meant to inform, you know, what is the direction that we're trending so that we have constant feedback so that if we need to make changes, whether that's changing the type of stress that we're asking the player to go through from a training standpoint, um, whether that's recommending. Some sort of, uh, recovery intervention or asking some questions about whether there's some areas to improve in the recovery standpoint or whether it's making some recommendations to, to manipulate some of the ONI stresses too. And, you know, obviously at this level we, we play an 82 game schedule, um, between travel and, and some of the days off there's. There's a, uh, relatively minimal load associated with practice compared to some other levels where, you know, in college you might be practicing four, four days a week and then playing games on two days. We play an average of three and a half games a week. There's at least one day off per week that leaves, you know, one to two practices available to, to manipulate some stress there. But, um, you know, again, our, our. Feedback from Catapult in the heart rate monitoring system gives us some valuable information about where players are trending in, um, their sh short and long-term preparation. Meaning, you know, we want them to build up to a certain level of workload and then we want them to sustain that within a fairy fairly, uh, narrow margin, meaning we will. Want to, uh, be really clear on if workload is trending higher and higher, that that is intentional and stay on top of that because that typically then is gonna warrant some changes in the off ice training, stress. And then als also our intentions with the recovery recommendations. And then the other side of that coin is we want to make sure that if, because of travel, uh, maybe changes in role, um, as far as what's being asked of them in the game. If players are in and out of the lineup. That if players are not getting as much on ice exposure as they had been previously, then we need to make some adjustments on that end too, to make sure that they're still staying physically prepared. So if their role, you know, if they're then asked to return back to the lineup, um, you know, I've seen situations where a player's gone from a healthy scratch to playing first line minutes the next game. So we always have that in the back of our head that players need to be prepared to play a role above what they're being asked to do now. So, You know, we kind of use, uh, the on ice workload monitoring as a way to almost create bumper lanes and say, you know, is this guy getting too high? What do we need to do to make sure that it's not gonna create excessive fatigue that's gonna spill over into the days, into the weeks ahead? Um, you know, on the other side is this player maybe not being exposed to enough total stress or a specific type of stress? And we need to make sure that that's being introduced strategically into their plan. So, You know, I, I think as far as how the roles changed, I, uh, you know, I, I think when you and I first connected, I was working in the private sector and, you know, the, so much of what you're doing with the athletes in that setting revolves around the training program itself, right? You're, you know, maybe running through some assessments, getting a baseline of where the player is at, what their goals are, designing a training program to help get them from point A to point B. Um, you might have some built-in feedback loops into the training process as far as, you know, maybe, uh, feedback from velocity, uh, tracking or, you know, if you're doing some sort of vertical jump tracking or jump analysis in your program. Um, heart rate and certain conditioning tests, all of that stuff provides valuable feedback and helps inform the training process. But there's so much about what goes on outside of that. Outside of, you know, the hour to two hours that you spend with them in your facility that you're just not aware of. And, you know, we've had, you know, I remember y years ago, I, I was working with a hockey player that, you know, multi-sport athlete, played soccer, played baseball, um, played ice hockey, was exceptional in all three areas. And at one point, I wanna say between the three sports, he was on five teams at one time. Because as you know, youth sports has, has spiraled completely out, out of control. And, you know, there's club teams, school teams, um, you know, select tournament teams and all of the schedules have now expanded. So it's not a true off season for any of those sports. And, you know, if, if that's an extreme, an ex example, but there are degrees of. Of stress that all of the athletes that were coming through our doors in the private sector were going through that we don't really have access to. We don't have the ability to necessarily manipulate those to have, you know, an impact on what their coaches are asking of them to do. And in the team setting, it's one of the things that excites me about this environment is, you know, you, you see the athletes on a daily basis. You have conversations with the coaches and the medical staff and. Uh, the support staff as far as, you know, any external resources, chiropractic consultants, massage therapists, et cetera, that you, you have the, uh, ability as a group, as a team to kind of dial up certain areas and dial back certain areas on a day-to-day basis to make sure that we, you know, we keep trending in a positive direction over the course of the season. So, you know, I, I think the, that's the exciting part. The challenge is that, There has been just an absolute explosion of research and of information, uh, a lot of which is conflicting in all of the different areas that support player performance. And, you know, I think nutrition is, is a powerful one. Um, you know, the expanding umbrella of sports science is a powerful one. I think. Um, you know, even, even throughout my career, the. Discussion around conditioning and what that should look like in, in the role that, you know, maybe aerobic training plays in supporting high intensity efforts. And, you know, the strategies that are available to address aerobic training, um, are, are significantly different now than, you know, I remember learning 15 years ago. So, you know, I, I think it's, it's a fun challenge and I, you know, it, it. It certainly what makes the job exciting is that there's, you know, no two days are alike. There's always new information that, um, you can learn and, and, you know, kind of marry that with your, your process and your philosophy. But, um, it changes fast and there's a lot to, there's a lot to keep up with.

Mike: 15:31

But if you do, that's what sets yourself apart, and that's why people like yourself have gotten to these points in their career is that we are always evolving. And I, I think you, you just brought up a ton of great points of how your profession's changed over the years and how it's grown. And I mean, it, it, you know, strength coaches just 20 years ago, I'm used to. You know, try to chase the players down to, to drag them into the weight room to get a workout in. Now, now it's, it's completely flipped where you're, they're almost like they're concierge for their, their total body, everything, right? Recovery, workloads, you know, how does that all play together? It's, it's, it's really, uh, it's really been fun to see all this. Evolve and how much, uh, the impact has been on the sports. I, I don't know if any of us are reducing injury rates as much as we want in pro sports, right. But hopefully we're getting our players, uh, performing at their peak more often. Is that a good way of saying it?

Kevin: 16:23

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I, I think there's been a lot of attention paid, uh, a across our profession in the importance of minimizing injury risk. And obviously, you know, minimizing injury risk throughout the training process is a. A huge, uh, goal that I think we do have a lot of control over minimizing risk within sport. You know, I, I think, has garnered a lot of research attention because it's a dichotomous outcome variable. The way it's tr traditionally measured, you know, you have some factors, a player gets hurt or they don't get hurt, you know, what may have contributed to one outcome versus the other. But, you know, I, I think if that's all we're looking at, we're missing a lot in. The, the goal of minimizing injury risk, there's so many factors that, that come into play there. And I think, Mike, if we're really looking at what we're asking of the players and what the players are coming into us, the state that they're arriving, they have substantially more wear and tear and volume of work on them than was present. 20 years ago, or 25 years ago. So it's not really an apples to apples comparison to look at injury rates now compared to injury rates 25 years ago and say, you know, this, we have all this technology and all these interventions and assessments and, and injury rates aren't changing. And if injury rates are staying the same, I think you can make the argument that that's, uh, that's a victory because the players are. They're, in most cases, they're bigger, they're stronger, they're faster. They are, uh, in our sport, playing a game that is less obstructed, so there's more opportunity for higher speed collisions. They've done that intentionally to improve the playing speed of the game, but as an outcome of that, now there's less slowing people up to create space for other people. So you're seeing more high speed collisions. Um, so, you know, I, I think when you look at all, and not to mention the fact that, you know, there was no year round hockey participation when, when I first was introduced to the game. Now that is a, it, it's more common than it is not. And for the players that are attempting to do the right thing and participate in multiple sports, like I referenced earlier, now you have. Year round sport participation in multiple sports. So the total volume of load that the players are experiencing is wildly different now than it was y, you know, few decades back. So, you know, it certainly doesn't mean that that realization is a justification to stop trying. I think we're always examining. What are potential risk factors that we can identify in individual players? Um, you know, the, the total volume of work at this level that we're asking them to perform is a big one. So if we can minimize exposure, Um, beyond points that we feel may be, uh, the risk reward scale may be tipped, then that certainly helps. You know, I think there's cases for certain range of motion testing and, and looking at strength around certain joints and, and all of those things that I think have been around for a while I think have a lot of merit. But, um, I don't know that just chasing the let's prevent injuries, um, as an end goal is realistic. And I think it also, Y you know, as, as, uh, somebody that works as a performance coach, I think looking at minimizing injury risk as a primary training goal makes it easy to overlook the impact that we can have on, on improving and maximizing performance in the athlete, which is, which is, uh, part of our goal too. So, you know, there's, there's some cases where the interventions may even be the same. Whether we're trying to minimize injury risk or positively impact performance, but the lens that you're looking through, those things are different. So you know, as an example, when people think of mobility work or flexibility, range of motion, That is almost always framed as an injury risk reduction strategy. You know, there's a loss of mobility. You're putting excessive wear and tear on that and or a neighboring joint, so we need to open that up so that it moves freely. You know, there's a little bit more movement variability both within that joint and then within the system as a whole, and that may, uh, positively improve the athlete's durability or resiliency to, to movement stress. Another way of looking at that is that athletes need to be able to get into certain positions within their sport to perform a movement within that sport optimally. And if they can't, because they have some individual joint restriction, it's gonna negatively impact their performance in, uh, whatever movement skill is relevant there. So, you know, in hockey there's a couple, there's a couple basic, you know, you need ankle dorsiflexion to get into a deeper skating position. In order to maintain a deep skating position and get full extension of the stride leg, you need to have a certain amount of hip abduction. That's, there's a trade off there that a lot of people overlook, I think, where if, if you don't have the abduction, it's gonna force you to adopt a higher skating position to get your, your leg through that full stride. So, you know, those are areas where ankle mobility, uh, and hip mobility. R really have a positive impact on skating performance, let alone the potential impact it can have on on injury risk reduction.

Mike: 22:11

That, that's huge. And, and I think that's where your unique experience with this. Again, I consider you unique. I've, I've worn similar shoes as yourself, where you've worked so many years outside of the game and then you worked so many years inside the game. You, you realize that. If you just have one of those exposures, you probably miss a little bit. So I really love your perspective on some of these things. So it it, let's keep going on what you just said there because I love that part. I, if I'm, if I'm a strength coach or even a physical therapist, but a strength coach at a gym and I'm working with a bunch of high school players and I don't necessarily specialize in hockey just yet, but I'm super interested in it. Keep going. Along those lines there, those types of pearls, so like ankle, dorsey, flexion's, huge hip abduction. What are the other things that you think, uh, uh, you train uniquely for hockey players that we don't do for other sports, like football, basketball, baseball, those sorts of things. What are the, some of the things that you focus on?

Kevin: 23:05

Yeah, I think from a range of motion standpoint, you know, I, I used hip abduction as a, as an example, but I think really multiplayer hip mobility is huge for the sport. You know, you. There's an interplay between ankle dorsiflexion and hip flexion that allows you to adopt a low skating position. Then, you know, like I mentioned, you need a certain amount of hip abduction to maintain that deep skating position. But then it's, that's linear skating, right, which is, uh, an incredibly important but very small segment of what actually takes place during the game. So, you know, there's also. When you are, uh, when you're striding out on the Ford skating stride, there's a degree of hip external rotation. There's a, uh, heavy emphasis on abduction and there's a little bit of hip extension. When you push under and a crossover stride, there's hip abduction and there's internal rotation, right? So, um, On the leg that's striding on the stance leg, your inflection and external rotation. So, you know, I, I think you can look at different phases of skating, stride patterns. And really there's an argument to be built for maximizing within, you know, the appropriate physiological ceiling where you're not pushing through passive structures. Um, maximizing multiplayer hip mobility for hockey players. The other big one. It is just thoracic spine rotation. So you know, obviously the whatever's going on in the lower segment, typically the opposite is happening in the upper body to counterbalance that movement. Right? So, you know, you're striding out to the, with your right leg, your upper body is gonna turn towards the left to counterbalance that. So, You know, be between the skating stride itself, between, uh, shooting obviously is, you know, a analogous to a baseball swing or a golf swing where you're going through a high velocity rotational movement. Having free thoracic rotation, uh, is, is huge as far as being able to open up that motion. You know, I think another I. Important expression of that is, you know, there's a lot of opportunities, uh, where, you know, a player sends you a pass and it may not lead you and be on your stick in front of you where you're gonna have to rotate backward. So your stick blade then becomes an extension of your body to be able to access more of the area around yourself. So, you know, having some, uh, having good rotation through your hips, having good rotation through your thoracic spine, it allows you then to. Use your stick around a wider arc of motion, and whether that's collecting passes that maybe are, uh, not able to be directly in front of you because of the way the, uh, opposition is lined up. Whether that's, you know, moving a puck across a wider arc of motion to evade defenders, um, whether that's using your stick stick in a defensive strategy to, to help close or eliminate some space for the other team. Um, passing lanes, shooting lanes, uh, those sorts of things. I think, you know, that's another, uh, another example of where having really good thoracic rotation can be really helpful is just expanding your arc of influence with your, your stick there. So those are the big ones. You know, I, I've brought up the idea of, of adopting lower skating positions a couple times, so general ideas. The lower you are, the longer your stride is. And the longer your stride is, the more your skate blade is making contact with the ice. So there's a longer opportunity for you to put force in the ice to propel yourself forward. So there's been, uh, you know, as you can imagine, there's not a ton of research on, on hockey that's been published, but there have been a few studies looking at the Ford skating stride and, and there's been a pretty consistent finding that. Lower skating positions, uh, a allow players to skate faster. It's, it's a characteristic that I think everybody that works in hockey is, is familiar with. You know, you go to any youth hockey rink, you're gonna hear the coach telling people to, to bend their knees or to get lower. And that's really the reason why is that it allows you to lengthen your stride. It's more time to put force into the ice, which then gives you a larger force impulse to propel your body forward with each stride. So, Um, you know, kind of tying everything together. I think, you know, having mobility and even just low position endurance, being able to maintain those positions are two things, even at the youth level that, that we harp on pretty early on with kids to make sure that they're checking that box. And, um, you know, you see a lot of kids where, Range of motion may not be limited, but they just don't have the strength to get into and the, the local muscular endurance to hold those positions. So that's kinda low hanging fruit to address those that can have a positive impact on speed.

Mike: 28:01

That was awesome. And I, I gotta take a break in a moment here to say this too, and I don't, hopefully I, I don't float your ego too much here, Kevin, but that was an amazing answer. And I gotta just say for the listeners here too, um, isn't it, Awesome. When somebody's such an expert in the field, like Kevin is with hockey right now, that these answers and the depth of, of the information that is just spewing out of Kevin right now is just absolutely amazing. Like, I want to hang out with you for like a whole weekend and just talk hockey. Like that's that, that's what I got out of that question, like. Uh, I mean, just your level of depth into these, these just shows your, your brain focuses on, on pretty much hockey and nothing else would be my guess with you, Kevin. So this is, this has been really fun. So I apologize. I had to take that break and point that out to the listeners. Like that's the sort of thing that, that, that. Uh, separates experts in my mind is just the, the casual amount of information that Kevin takes for granted probably each day that he just shared with us in just a five minute question. I, I thought that was amazing. So thank you for that. So sorry for that break.

Kevin: 29:05

No, I appreciate that. I'd probably benefit from having some more hobbies, but yeah, I've spent a, spent a lot of time thinking about this stuff.

Mike: 29:13

Uh, well, every golfer I know that quit, I mean, every hockey player I know that quits hockey goes to golf and dominates. So you should, uh, you should start looking into that because, uh, everybody seems to be a great golfer, but, uh, That, uh, but again, amazing. Uh, one other area I wanted to hit on you. I'll, I'll get back on focus, I apologize. But, uh, one other area I wanted to hit on, just like what you just answered right there is tell the listeners a little bit about the injuries you're seeing in hockey nowadays, because again, I think everything evolves over time, right? And, and the, the injuries that they saw probably 20 years ago and 10 years ago maybe are a little different than today. What do you think are some of the things that you're seeing the most in hockey these days?

Kevin: 30:18

Yeah, I mean, I, I think there's, uh, there's a few things that have probably been fairly consistent over the years as far as impact injuries with concussions with, uh, AC separations. Um, those are significantly more common than, uh, shoulder dislocations. But, you know, let me get those every few years as well. Um, you know, I think the big ones are, That we certainly put a high emphasis on preventing, um, our soft tissue injuries around the hip, whether that's hip flex or strains, adductor strains. Um, and then also lower abdominal tears. And I, I think the, you know, we, there's been, uh, over the last 10 years in particular, there's been a lot more attention paid to femoroacetabular impingement and the downstream consequences that. The, you know, for the listener that maybe isn't familiar, you know, femoroacetabular impingement or f fai is essentially a bony overgrowth, either of the, you know, the femoral head neck offset or of the acetabular hood, or, which is probably the most common. Some, some degree of both. That limits hip flexion range of motion because of the bony obstruction. So, You know, there's certainly some, uh, things that you can do to help navigate that once that's present. But as a general rule, that's a structural block and that's not something that you can, you know, mobility work your way out of opposed to somebody that may have a more functional limitation, but know. Uh, F FAI may respond a lot, uh, a lot better or, um, to a larger extent than somebody that does have that structural block. So, you know, with that, when you have players that are attempting to navigate into these positions that the game is requiring of them. While also working around a structural block like fai, you can get some maybe excessive motion at the pubic synthesis, um, or, you know, the SI area that can create some issues around that entire pelvic ring. So whether that's, you know, sitis, pubic, and you have some inflammation at that pubic synthesis joint, whether that's, you know, SI related issues, whether, um, somebody has, uh, uh, hip flex or strain or. Um, you know, adductor, longis, pec tinius, we tend to see a lot more of those opposed to, uh, the other adductors. Um, all of those things may be related to how the athlete is positioning their pelvis and attempting to navigate around a structural block. So, you know, I, I think in, in attempting to address that, we first need to identify is there a structural block? Is this something that. You know, this has, uh, this bony overgrowth has progressed to a point where we need to start looking for strategies to work around it instead of trying to improve it, if that makes sense. Um, and with that, you know, we've, we obviously are fortunate in this setting where, you know, we have multiple, multiple physical therapists. We have, uh, two chiropractic consultants. We have a full and part-time massage therapist, you know, within our staff. Um, you know, we have people that can dry needle, obviously, uh, boney manipulation, um, you know, a a lot of the, uh, common soft tissue schools that people are familiar with. Um, we try to, you know, open up range of motion using those strategies, then reinforce it using, um, you know, whether corrective exercise is still a bad word. Now, I, I don't know, but. Um, you know, we try to open up range of motion and then create some stability and control with the new range of motion and just make sure that we're not pushing through ranges that that individual structure doesn't allow. And, you know, I, I think Mike, the injury prevention side of it, um, goes hand in hand with the performance side of it too, which is, you know, half the battle is for, for players at this stage that. Have some accumulated wear and tear. You know, pretty much everybody has some injury history. The older the player, typically the, the more, uh, significant the list is of things that they have gone through, the surgeries they've had, the injuries that they've healed from. So, you know, half the battle is knowing what not to do with certain players. Where, where maybe, uh, their structure really doesn't lend itself to, you know, there's a significant enough hip restriction that. The skating stride, which requires extremes of hip range of motion at high velocities, at repetitive high volumes. Maybe that's a real challenge for their structure to, uh, to accommodate and to perform at. But they're here, right? So they've obviously, they've found a way to be successful enough to, to work around whatever limitations they have. So a significant part of our job. Is to make sure that we're not then adding excessive negative stress that's going to increase the, uh, demand that they need to recover from in some of these areas. So, you know, there might be a more conservative exercise or a, a more narrow exercise selection for certain players, where we're really focusing on, you know, we know these patterns are safe. We know that the player responds well to these things. So we can really focus our loading strategies on these few patterns where, you know, a younger player that doesn't have that same wear and tear, maybe doesn't have structural limitations, they're gonna have a, a larger bandwidth to introduce variability in the exercise selection, uh, stage of the process. So, um, you know, hopefully all that makes sense, but injuries, heads, shoulders, hips, and then, The other one is, is, uh, contact injuries to the knee, to which, you know, we, we having strong hips, um, y you know, making players aware from an anticipation standpoint. I think that's probably an overlooked part of it. And, and frankly, it's a hard thing to, to implement regardless of who that message is coming from, whether it's us, the medical staff, coaching staff, skills coaches. Um, the more a player can anticipate contact without it distracting from them doing their job and, and. Um, you know what, whatever that is, moving the puck or just being aware that a player's approaching them and that they're likely to, uh, withstand some contact. The, the more aware they are and the better they prepare, prepare for that. I think that that has a significant impact on how they're absorbing that contact, which can have an impact on head, shoulder and knee injuries, but it's a fast game, um, and there's a lot of chaos on the ice. So, you know, that's kind of the. One of the occupational hazards of the sport is that occasionally you get some knee injuries as well.

Mike: 37:28

For sure, for sure. H h how many, how many people, how many young players do you see entering the game now with well established FAI symptoms? Is, is that something that's growing? Are we, are we, are we identifying asymptomatic ones earlier now? Like how has that evolved just in your short career so far, like in the last 10 years or so?

Kevin: 37:52

Y Yeah, there was a, there was a study, I think it was published in 2013 from Philippine's group out in Colorado. And, and they did a, uh, they performed, you know, IM imaging on the hips of youth hockey players. And essentially what they found was that, you know, when players are roughly in the, you know, 13, 14 year old age group, so, you know, think eighth, ninth graders that. About a third of them already had a hip structure that would allow them to be diagnosed with f a I. Um, there was a slightly higher percentage, if I'm remembering correctly, I think closer to 40% that had labral tears at that age. And then you go up another few years, so 15, 16 year olds, and those numbers both jumped to about 67%. About two-thirds of the players had diagnosable f A I and hip labral tears. Next age group up, you know, which is essentially the end of high school by the time these players are entering. Junior, you know, on the earlier end of college, it was 93% that had diagnosable f a i, and I believe it was a hundred percent that had hip labral tears. So, you know, I, I think the, there's a couple important messages there. One is that, The significant, uh, majority of those populations were asymptomatic. So, you know, I think this is another example in, in, you know, there's several looking at images of different joints and different populations, but I. Um, you, you can't just rely on the findings of images to dictate the, the path forward. You know, if you have all these positive findings of, of fai and labral tears and asymptomatic players, and if a player has symptoms, then that's certainly a piece of the puzzle. I think it's helpful to know what might be going on, you know, take a peek under the hood and see structurally what may be contributing. But at the same time, I think you have to marry those imaging findings with. Your movement assessments with the onset of symptoms of, uh, what type of movement patterns, maybe provoke symptoms and, and how they respond to some different soft tissue modalities, and then exercise interventions as well. So that's, that's part of it, is that for youth players that maybe don't have the same volume of, you know, they're, they're not hearing, uh, about as many players getting x-rays and MRIs on their hips and. They don't know that that's as prevalent of a finding as it is. They might be scared if they hear that they have a hip label tear and think like, I need to get this operated on as fast as possible. Um, you know, I, I think there's reason to give yourself pause and to, to maybe explore some other options before just defaulting to surgery. So that's one part of it. I think from, from my perspective, uh, I now enter a relationship with an athlete, assuming that they have some stage of structural limitation at the hip, and likely a hip labral tear until they prove to me otherwise. So

Mike: 41:01

Right. Isn't that, isn't that crazy?

Kevin: 41:03

case, I think, early on, starting in my career where, you know, you assume health until, until something, uh, until some information comes to light that points you in a different direction. I think now, I'm assuming that there are limitations in assuming that there's probably some underlying damage to the hip labrum and some other structures around the hip un until we have enough water under the bridge of working with that athlete and knowing that they respond favorably to, to certain strategies that they almost test their way into, you know, deeper ranges of motion or, you know, some different exercises that I might steer clear from as a general rule, general rule for the population.

Mike: 41:46

Yeah, I great insight. And I can tell you as a, uh, father of a, uh, 10 year old girl that's been playing, uh, quite a bit of hockey lately, uh, it's getting worse. It's gonna get worse. She skates. She's getting all year now because she's, you know, she's learning. So she's trying to get through these things. And what we're seeing at the youth level with some of these sports is, is just crazy. I, I, I can only imagine the future, but, um, it sounds like I need to work on her Dorsey flexion. I need to work on her hip abduction, multi-directional stop. So this whole episode was purely for my daughter. So thank you, Kevin. I appreciate that.

Kevin: 42:20

Yeah. You know, and it's, uh, so back in the private sector, we used to work with a lot of youth hockey programs and youth soccer programs and. You know, as, uh, when we would have these teams that would come in, we would take them through a basic screening process. And one of the things that we looked at was ankle dorsiflexion. And, you know, I was really quick, uh, tangent to that story. I, uh, my, my son started playing soccer, um, last fall. And, you know, I, I got a real kick out of. You know, the first couple minutes they had all the, my, he's five at the time, so, um, not quite at the same stage that your daughter is at, but I got a real kick. They started practice by like lining all the kids up and stretching and. You know, it's like I, I, I saw my son earlier that day, put his foot behind his head. So, you know, I kind of thought it was funny. This population probably don't need to set him up and, and go through stretching as a way to prepare them. You can probably just get him moving and that'll do the trick for him. But that assumption, uh, disappears faster than I would've thought. And with some of those youth, Hockey and soccer teams, we would see with 11, 12, 13 year olds, boys and girls, that there were significant dorsiflexion limitations in both. Meaning, you know, if you do that traditional tests with the, uh, the FMS kid and you're just measuring dorsiflexion in inches, we had several players that could not clear their big toe, meaning they had, you know, zero inches using that test of dorsiflexion. So, Um, you know, I, I think the, the assumption that because they're kids and they tend to be flexible because of the amount of volume of, of sport that they're going through at younger ages, um, I think footwear has a, plays a big role in this as well. But, um, dorsa flexion was one of those things that, uh, started to. Become restricted significantly earlier in the developmental process than I would've assumed had we not gone through that process. So, um, Doris selection would be one to at least check with your daughter.

Mike: 44:31

Interesting. I love it. Awesome. Well, Kevin, this is amazing. I, I feel like we could talk for, for hours, but, uh, before we end, I wanna let you, uh, kind of share some things so we can learn a little bit. About you, but, uh, little sequence at the end called the high five. Five quick questions, five quick answers, just to learn a little bit about your mind, your growth mindset, that sort of thing. But first question, what are you currently working on for your own continuing education and professional development? What are you doing right now?

Kevin: 44:59

Yeah, that's a good question. I, uh, my ConEd tends to go in cycles. I, I tend to get fixated on a, an area and, um, you know, whether that's a new book or, or research articles on a topic, I, you know, tend to get fixated on a topic, digest as much information as I can on that. And then, Cycle back through something that maybe I had spent a lot of time on in years past and feel like I, I need to review, um, or freshen up on a bit. And I, uh, you know, the last few weeks I went through Peter Atias new book, outlive, and thought that that was just an outstanding deep dive into some topics that are, are very important from a public health standpoint. Um, you know, obviously as none of us get younger, right? So. Um, I finished that book and then immediately restarted that to reread it. And, uh, looking forward to going through that a second time. But I, I, uh, also pulled out my old t p I manual. Um, there's a book, uh, called Making Numbers Count, I think by Chip and Dan Heath. Um, and then I have, uh, a couple books on sleep that I'm, I'm rereading as well right now. So those are all some things that I had, uh, g gone through in years past that I'm just pulling back off the shelf and gonna give myself a little bit of a refresher here.

Mike: 46:20

Awesome. What is one thing you've recently changed your mind about?

Kevin: 46:26

Yeah, it's a good question. I, I, uh, I, I think. Yeah, no, I mean, I, I, I'm constantly changing my mind about things. I, you know, I, I think the, uh, you know, we talked a little bit about the technology and the sports science area as a whole, and, you know, when I first started to recognize the importance of that area of, of within sport workload monitoring, um, in particular, I, I really was going into it with. The assumption and, and maybe the hope that y you could have a very prescriptive, targeted approach of, you know, we need to hit these numbers and that's going to, you know, quote unquote guarantee us these outcomes. And y you know, I, I think as I've spent more time with that data and understanding where it fits within the. You know, the, the global environment of team sport, particularly at this level. You know, I, I think it's, it's less of a sniper rifle approach and more of a, you know, can, like I had mentioned earlier, can we put some bumper lanes on, on excessive and insufficient stress on the player? And, you know, I think about all of those, all of the technology, and I think I mentioned this earlier as well as, Just creating feedback loops. So no matter what the number is, no matter what the source of that feedback is, you know, did we, did we expect the response, the feedback that we got? If we didn't expect it, can we explain it? So you know, maybe we're testing vertical jump and we just came off of a long road trip and didn't get in until 4:00 AM players had a day off. The next day we come in and vertical jump numbers are down. Well, is it because their capacity has been reduced? Or is it because they're still acclimating to a time zone change and the, uh, circadian shift that results from staying up until four or 5:00 AM in the morning as a result of the travel. So, you know, did we expect it? Can we explain it? And then do we need to intervene? And if we do need to intervene, who's doing the intervening? And then what is our feedback for whether that was a positive intervention? So, you know, I, I think, um, my. My mentality on how, uh, sport science should inform the process has evolved quite a bit over recent years.

Mike: 48:53

That's awesome. That's awesome. And, and that's, that's how you grow in that field. It's. Through experience. Right. So I, I, I think that's a, a great way of saying it. Um, next question is, and I'm gonna customize this a little bit for you a little bit, but what is your best piece of advice for a, a student or an early career professional that wants to get into pro hockey at, what would you tell them?

Kevin: 49:13

Yeah, I mean, I, I think the first question I would ask is, why do you want to get into pro hockey? You know, I think there's a. An assumption that, uh, that working at this level is a reflection on, you know, you being the best because you're working with the best players. And, you know, I I, I have found working at this level to be incredibly rewarding. It's been, uh, a, a fun challenge for a lot of the reasons we talked about before, but I, I also would say in the same breath that I have a tremendous amount of respect for the coaches that. Can get a 12 year old that has not been exposed to formal training and is going through that stage of their development, where their movement skills and coordination are really challenging if a coach can get them to do things correctly. I, I think it's every bit as much of a feather in their cap as far as their, their coaching abilities as it is to work with players at this level. I think, um, you know, there's. There's a, a significant need for great coaches working at the youth levels, working at, um, division three collegiate levels. Uh, certainly working in high schools around the country that, you know, I would, I would encourage people to, to maybe hold those positions in a higher regard than, uh, you know, I think most people just. Want to get to pro sports as fast as possible and, and maybe overlooking some really exceptional opportunities to make an impact at youth levels. So that said, um, you know, I think to, to earn an opportunity to interview for a position at any elite level of sport, whether that's, uh, you know, a quote unquote big time division one program, whether it's some level of professional sport. You need to have a wide range of foundational knowledge. You need to have an expansive and diverse, uh, set of, of applied experiences. Um, you need to be well versed in different areas of. Your education and your experience that support performance? I don't think it's enough now. The way that the profession has evolved to just be a good kind of traditional strength and conditioning coach, I think you have to have some supporting knowledge in other areas, whether that's nutrition, whether that's, um, you know, the, the familiarity with, uh, rehab strategies and some comfort in working alongside rehab professionals. Um, whether that's more on the. Uh, the technology side, even data organization analysis, presentation. Um, you know, I, I think that those supporting skill sets are incredibly important, and that may be, is a long-winded way of saying you need to have some sort of valuable and rare skillset that sets you apart from the other people that might be putting in for those jobs. And, you know, I, I think, uh, It's important to recognize that, you know, j jobs at this level aren't, they're not posted on job boards typically for, you know, people all over the world to apply for. Typically people are, and this is true, you know, I, I was looking for an assistant a couple years ago, and I have a group of people that I have a tremendous amount of respect for and trust in, and that was my first step in looking to acquire. An assistant and to hire for our AHL organization as well is I'm gonna look for recommendations from people that I trust. So one of the best ways, I think to develop your, your experiences and to also maybe be put on the list of candidates that are considered for these is to find great mentors and to. Volunteer intern work, uh, you know, whatever you can do to provide some value back to those individuals. Just do that as early as possible and to continue to work and expand under the mentorship of somebody that. Has either worked in the position that you are hoping to one day have an opportunity to interview for, um, or is at a minimum, uh, you know, on the list of people that are being asked if they have any recommendations for people for those positions. And there's a lot of those people out there. Um, and I think people are really willing to help mentor younger professionals that, that are. In it for the right reasons. And, um, you know, so that, that, that's what I would say. I think, I think there's a lot of value in positions at other levels that, uh, is getting overlooked and they're probably underserved right now, you know, at the same time, um, I, if people are really set on acquiring a position at higher levels of sport, I, you know, I think you have to, it takes a lot of work and it, it. Takes purposeful work to expand what you're able to offer to an organization, and it's not just getting good grades in school. I think that is helpful, obviously, but it, it's really the, the breadth of experiences and your ability to work within a team in this setting. Um, that's really the most important.

Mike: 54:48

That's awesome and I don't think that advice will ever get old, so this will be a good episode to refer back to. So that was awesome. Uh, what's coming up next for you, Kevin?

Kevin: 54:57

Uh, that's a great question. You know, I think, uh, over the last couple months, uh, a colleague of mine, Jesh Patel and I have been editors for a new book that's coming out from the n Sca and Human Kinetics called Strength Training for Hockey. So, Um, we're in the final stages of that, so, uh, that's been a fun project to collaborate with, with b and, and the, uh, the authors of the individual chapters on. I think, um, for me personally, I'm, I am trying to make a more purposeful effort to, uh, share content through social media, primarily on Instagram and, and to get my website and newsletter back active. Um, I've taken a little bit of a hiatus as I've. You know, transitioned into the pro sport world and, uh, that has coincided with, uh, us having two kids at home now. So,

Mike: 55:48

Sure.

Kevin: 55:49

know, we're starting to get our, our head above water here on the home front as well. So, um, hoping to get a little bit more active on those fronts too, and, and continue to share information and. Um, just do what I can to, to give back to people that are interested, uh, in, in learning on those avenues. So, um, that's kind of next step for me. And then where things go from there, we will, uh, we'll see, just kind of taking things one day at a time.

Mike: 56:13

That's awesome. Congrats on the book. I look forward to seeing it. That that'd be great. Um, so where can people find more about you then? What's, what's a good spot? I know I've, I've followed your blog for some time. I don't know how much you've kept up with that, but obviously you've done a bunch of stuff over the years, but where can people find you?

Kevin: 56:29

Yeah, so my website is just kevin neal.com. Um, you know, I, like I just mentioned, I. The new content is, uh, not quite as frequent on that site as it had been in the past, but I, I have something along the lines of, of over 500 articles, uh, that are already on that site. So, um, primarily related to, to hockey and long-term athletic development, the preparation of the hockey athlete across the, the different stages. So, Um, if those are areas that are of interest, there's a lot of free content on the site that people can check out. Uh, my Instagram account, I'm just at Kevin Yield, uh, pretty easy to find there. But that's the other area too, where, um, I'm, I'm putting out more, uh, new content as regularly as I can, uh, squeeze into the schedule here. So those are the two main spots.

Mike: 57:23

Awesome. Well, thanks again for taking time outta your busy schedule to do this. I know there's never a, an easy time for you to, to break free and do this sort of thing, so, uh, amazing episode. Tons of depth to your knowledge that you shared with us today. I, I can't thank you enough, so thanks for coming on the show, Kev.

Kevin: 57:38

Cool. Thanks Mike. Appreciate you having me.